Chicago Bulls Thread

[Andrew]

Chicago's Hughes Will Only Miss 2-4 Weeks

Good news for him I guess, but hopefully he isn't thrust back into a prominent role if the backcourt rotation performs well in his absence. It's a shame his contract doesn't expire this coming offseason as that might have made him easier to move.

[Doobie]

Did you fellas see his shoulder after the injury? I've seen quite a few dislocated shoulders and nothing compared to that, it made chills run down my spine.

[Andrew]

Saw a quick glimpse of it in this video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB-tFAjOCgU[/youtube]

[Doobie]

I had a better picture of it yesterday but I cant seem to find it.

http://media.bonnint.net/apimage/9960fd ... af456b.jpg

[Matthew]

Did you fellas see his shoulder after the injury? I've seen quite a few dislocated shoulders and nothing compared to that, it made chills run down my spine.

Wade's a few years back was the worst I've seen

[Doobie]

I never saw a clear picture of the shoulder, all I saw was the video where Shane dislocated his shoulder and it did look painful. The crying at the end also made it seem really painful too.

[buzzy]

Found this pic. His bone like pops out of the side.

[Doobie]

That's the pic I was talking about Buzzy, thanks alot dude.

[Andrew]

That does look quite unpleasant.

[---]

Wow, I checked out the forums to see if the 2k9 PC thing was true (only found out today), seems like I might not have to bust the bank for a PS3 to play some decent video ball. As soon as I see the game in stores, I'm buying it.

Since I'm here, I have to thank the basketball gods for Derrick Rose. I watched alot of him in college and he really impressed me, but I didn't even think he'd come on this quick. He's already demanding the ball in crunch time, running the break like a mad man (in a good way) and running the offence (or lack thereof?) in a way more pleasant-to-watch way than Kirk Hinrich dribbling the ball for 22 seconds.

14/3/6 as a rookie is definitely within reach. I figured he's be somewhere in between the rookie seasons of Deron Williams and Chris Paul, and that looks about right. But his end of year statline probably wont show his true worth because when you watch this guy he improves almost quarter by quarter. I think end of season Derrick is going to be substantially better than current Derrick, especially defensively (where he has been terrible)... luckily for him it's not a matter of "can he?". He is fast, plays the passing lanes well, good lateral quickness, etc. His defensive mistakes are mostly being caught out of position and mental lapses. He's been a bit like Noc in that regard - he's trying, but he's still failing.

Still, in the games since his preseason debut he has picked it up alot, and I expect those defensive growing pains to be over in a couple months. Overall I expect Derrick to be considered a pretty good defensive PG during his career.

As for the obvious need for a trade, please Pax - trade Kirk Hinrich. He is not needed at PG anymore, and he looks very shaky out there at SG. Ben Gordon is a perfect offensive match for Derrick, let him start. I don't see anyone offering Ben more money than the Bulls next summer anyway, so treat him like he is still part of our future. I also wanted Noc gone for financial reasons, but we need shooters to go alongside Derrick and Noc has done well in that SF/PF role knocking down those open threes.

Luol I'm not worried about at all, despite the terrible preseason. I expect him to be back up near his 06-07 level - the gap between Derrick and Luol is bridged by one of the leagues best shooters in Ben Gordon. When Ben played his lone preseason game alongside Derrick and Lu, Luol quietly had his most efficient game all preseason. A backcourt of Derrick Rose/Ben Gordon/Luol Deng is very hard to defend - offensively they all complement each others games really well.

Thabo has looked terrible through preseason, and he had better hope he plays like he did at the end of last year before Larry comes back, or he'll never get back into the rotation. His jumpshot looked alot better post-Skiles, but it hasn't looked good so far this preseason. He is already a very good defender, good ball handler and passer, he is just a good jumpshot away from being a very valuable role player in this league. That said, he's in a tough situation with Ben, Larry and Kirk gunning for minutes at the two.

Tyrus looks better, if he can ever finish anything other than a dunk he will be a force to reckon with offensively because there are very few PF's in the game who can stick with him. His jumper looks good despite the percentages, I think he's a solid option from midrange. It's just so damn frustrating seeing him faceup a guy, and go right around him like it's nothing then miss the basket. With his jumpshot dropping, he would be almost impossible to stop - he's far quicker, athletic and a better ballhandler than damn near ever big man in the league, he just can't finish once he gets to the rim.

Overall, the future for this team looks good. It's all thanks to Derrick Rose though, because he will lead this team for the next decade.

Hopefully we can shed some salary (trade Kirk, let Gooden walk, Hughes expiring, etc) and get far enough under the cap to sign a star bigman. A team that will probably suck in 2010 (like Phoenix?) could see a big name walk into that huge free agent market. Imagine netting a guy like Amare Stoudemire or Chris Bosh and adding him to the nucleus of Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah downlow, Andres Nocioni, Thabo Sefolosha, Luol Deng and Ben Gordon out on the wings and then putting the ball in Derrick's hands and let him run the show. That's a good look.

[Andrew]

Great to see you again. On the subject of 2K9, I'm not sure if New Zealand is in the same boat but it doesn't look like the PC version will be in Australian stores anytime soon, so you may have to end up ordering from the States. No issues there though (aside from the exchange rate) as the PC is region free.

Back on the subject of the Bulls, I certainly agree that Gordon should be starting but it looks like thatwon't be the case. Perhaps that will change if Thabo struggles and the Bulls lack firepower out of the gate. A player like Gordon can be useful providing scoring off the bench but an offensively challenged team like the Bulls can't afford to get blown out in the first six minutes while their leading scorer the past three seasons is waiting to enter the game. Hopefully Rose's penetration will make up for the lack of a low post threat in creating a few more open shots for players like Gordon though if Noah can become a double digit scorer working out of the post so much the better. I don't like their chances of snagging a high profile big man through free agency though but I guess we can only wait and see.

[---]

Good to see the forum still going strong. Looks like you're right, I haven't seen the game in stores here anywhere and when I asked they had no idea it was on PC. I'll have to check out the postage costs, etc... but it'd be cool to get the game a few games into the regular season and kinda play along with the real season. I haven't read much about the game at all so all the features will be new to me (only played 2K8 a few times).

I agree with you on the need for Ben to start on this team. It's even more enforced now that we have VDN running things, and his offence (or Del Harris?) leaves features alot of open threes - something Noc has thrived off, and Ben would make an absolute killing off being one of the very best jumpshooters in the league. I see no reason to start Kirk - he slows the game down and looks very awkward out there at SG. It's like when he gets the ball, he reverts back to a PG and starts dribbling around. At SG next to Derrick, you have to get open and attack. He hasn't done that at all.

Then again, Larry is out with that shoulder injury and Thabo has been terrible in the preseason - so the choice is really only between Ben and Kirk. I can see where Kirk has the obvious edge - in that Ben, while he played very well, only played one preseason game and has missed alot of practice time. Not to mention something could be brewing with JR meeting with him yesterday. Alot of uncertainty at the two guard right now.

From the outside looking in, Ben should definitely be the starter, but obviously we don't know how practice goes or if certain people have issues, so I can accept Kirk starting. That said, if Ben is around for the longhaul, it's time to end this sixth man experiment. The guy is a starter in this league and will only reinforce that playing next to a great playmaker in Derrick. His lack of defensive ability is completely overblown in my opinion, especially since Kirk looked the most ineffective at that end of the court in his entire career last year.

I do think Derrick will make up somewhat for the lowpost issue. I don't think it would be an issue at all of Tyrus finished those shots he generates downlow so often, but there have been no signs of improvement thus far - although other parts of his game look better and his overall demeanor on the court looks alot more mature and under control. Also we ill have a full season of Drew Gooden, who despite his incredible defensive shortcomings is a solid option downlow and fully capable of putting up 15 points a night if he gets the shots. I don't think he will, but he is certainly capable of it.

I'm really looking forward to this season, we have alot of guys with things to prove. I'd say the Bulls are one of, if not the biggest question mark team in the league. The team completely fell flat on their faces last year, made no roster changes during the offseason after adding the number one overall pick who's strengths are something that haven't been seen on this team in years.

I think if we can move Kirk and resign Ben this offseason we have a good looking core. Derrick looks like a superstar come a few years time. Ben is a perfect fit offensively, and a guy like Luol Deng is a great fit next to those two guys feeding off all the attention they'll get. Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes will leave when their contracts expire and open up minutes for Tyrus Thomas - who could really be a 17/10 player in the NBA - and a potential Bruce Bowen/Shane Battier type roleplayer in Thabo Sefolosha. Joakim Noah if he adds the muscle will be a nice defensive 7 footer downlow who can run the floor, pass, rebound, block shots and finish around the rim. no doubt this team has a good foundation - it's all a question of the young guys meeting their potential and management making the right moves.

Obviously other than Derrick, Tyrus is the guy who needs to meet that immense potential he has. We have a 6-9 power forward who is one of the most athletic players in the league. I can probably count on one hand the number of PF's that can stick with him. He looks to have the jumpshot out to about 17 down somewhat consistently, enough to demand respect from the defence so they can't just sag off him. He's been somewhat of a blackhole offensively lately - most likely due to frustration and wanting to make a point, but he's also had alot of nice creative passes over his career that show he has good enough vision to make the right play. His ballhandling is great for a power forward, and when you combine that with his athletic ability and quickness he is a huge matchup problem downlow... he almost looks like a perimeter player at times.

Defensively we all know he can swat shots with the best of them, and is a very good rebounder who, if he gets the minutes, is a legit double-double threat. He does need some work on his man defence, but overall he is pretty good. Defensively speaking he's a gem.

He get's to the line quite alot for a PF, and knocks it down at a good rate. Especially this preseason, where I believe he has shot over 90%, which is unheard of from a PF. It wasn't from a small amount of freethrows either... he probably shot about 40 FT's over the preseason.

Yet why, in reality, is he a 7/5 bench player? Why hasn't he put it all together?

In my opinion his one huge issue is finishing around the basket. He's got the jumpshot. He can get to the rim anytime he wants. He can get to the line and knock it down. It just seems that unless it's a dunk or he's bailed out by the refs, he can't finish. He throws up some wild shots that have little chance of going in. If he plays 30 minutes a game this year like he should and gets a good 12-13 shots off, finishing becomes crucial.

If you look at his stats on 82games.com, it's really telling. I mean, it's obvious in games that he can't finish almost anything around the rim if it isn't a dunk, but the numbers really reinforce that.

Close range (non dunks):

LaMarcus Aldridge takes 25% of his shots from close range and shoots 52.5% from there.

Amare Stoudemire takes 26% of his shots from close range and shoots 62.1% from there.

Kevin Garnett shoots 19% of his shots from close range and shoots 59.9% from there.

Tim Duncan? 63.1%
Pau Gasol? 57.4%
Andrew Bynum? 54.9%
Carlos Boozer? 64.3%

I mean, these guys are good players, but I personally would expect a star post player to shoot up around 60% from close range. I think most people would expect that, and the numbers show that it should be.

Then we get to Tyrus Thomas.

36% of his shots come this way. That's a third of his offence.

And guess what? He only shoots 33.8%. I mean, that's terrible for a PF. Terrible.

To make matters worse, he gets blocked almost a quarter of that time.

If he can get his 13 shots a game, continue taking about a third of them in that manner... and hit them at a rate similar a guy like Pau Gasol? The skys the limit.

He can prove he can get to the line, he can get the offensive boards, he can get to the rim... he just needs to be able to finish. If he ever does... look out. A Derrick Rose/Tyrus Thomas combo would be nasty.

[Alejandrov011]

Nice to see Shannon here again after a while




Nice recap... I'm waiting to see how Vinny uses Tyrus Thomas and Sefolosha

[Andrew]

I do like Hinrich but the team is kind of at a crossroads with him and the way things are shaping up I think they'd be better off moving him for a more suitable player. He's no scrub (despite his woeful 2007/2008 season) but he looks for his own shot a little too much to be a great distributing point guard and he's not a potent enough scorer to be an effective shooting guard or scoring point guard. He's a better defender than Gordon but the Bulls teams of recent years have been able to play defense adequately but they've struggled to score. It didn't help when Skiles would keep players like Malik Allen and Adrian Griffin out there for too long, hopefully that won't be an issue under Del Negro.

That's a very telling statistic about Thomas and you're absolutely right, he needs to show improvement now. The Aldridge trade is already looking like a big mistake, admittedly Thomas hasn't been getting the best opportunity to shine but now is the time for him to make that trade look better and bring more to the table. That's not to say he has to become one of the elite forwards overnight but if a third of his shots are coming inside then 34% shooting inside is not going to cut it.

The team is not in terrible shape but a lot of their fortunes are tied up in "upside" and there are question marks as to who's going to be around beyond this year (or maybe even the trade deadline) but with the addition of Rose I do feel more optimistic about the Bulls salvaging some respect after last year. Perhaps without specific trade rumours hanging over their heads, they'll have their heads on straight and be in the game from the get go. November is tough because of the circus trip though, but they really can't afford to fall into a hole.

[CMJ3]

I must say im pretty impressed with Rose, he is considered a darkhorse for ROY but i think he could shake it if he improves at his current rate. He has the potential to lead the Bulls in Assists and possibly scoring if he becomes the number 1 option.

[Dan's Brain]

ALRIGHT! Good start to the season. 108-95 over the Bucks while shooting 51% from the field. Not a bad debut from Rose (11 pts, 9 asts) and solid games from Kirk, Ben and Deng. And a pretty damn good double-double from Tyrus as well.


Gooden/Thomas/Deng/Thabo/Rose feels like an odd starting 5 to me, but i guess you can't argue with the results. If the Bulls continue at this rate, then we have to assume they'll go 82-0, which would be nice.

[Doobie]

Gosh 81-1 would be such a dissapointment!

[Andrew]

Caught most of the second half on SopCast, I think I'll be ordering that one from PonTel. I know, it's one game that could prove very meaningless in the standings when it's all said and done but it was an enjoyable game and Rose's official NBA debut after all.

Definitely a good (but not great) debut for Rose, every now and then you could see how his penetration could really help the team and open up players like Gordon. As JN13 said, solid games from the key guys and most importantly the season has been opened on a positive note. I'm sure beating Skiles felt like a bit of a treat too.

A promising victory but there are still obstacles to clear for them to even have a respectable season, let alone a noteworthy one. I'm looking forward to the season and if all goes well I think they can at least be respectable but I'm wary at the same time. They opened the 2006/2007 season in style but fell into a hole shortly afterwards. Even though they did recover that year, falling into that hole really sets them back and was a complete disaster last season.

[Valor]

ouch..i just caught up with the Celtics- Bulls game on nba.com just then, from the game recap it looks like we got flat out raped by Boston in KG's 1000th game...airballs and lame misses by everyone on the bulls team....gonna go watch the game that i recorded now....omg

[shadowgrin]

Expect to see more games like that when the Bulls face quality teams.

[Valor]

well, i dont expect any games as horrible as the ones they got and would get from Boston..not many teams can play that level of defense Bulls couldnt do a thing in a half court situation...

[Dan's Brain]

Yikes. Just yikes. His career may be only two games old, but Derrick Rose is already by far the best player on this team. He really shouldnt have been benched after his fourth foul, Vinny should have just let him go for it.

Tyrus Thomas: heck. HECK. It was a hideous performance offensively, but i'm firmly of the belief that if you're going to walk into walls, then you might as well run into them full speed. Even playing like complete shite, he's still fun to watch.

Thabo: will be out of the starting lineup within the week. It's time to get Ben Gordon and Derrick Rose playing together. I can't remember them being on the court at the same time at all against the Celtics.

[Andrew]

I like Thabo but he really shouldn't be starting. He's too tentative offensively, passing up too many good looks. That's kind of a time-wide problem though (Tyrus Thomas being an obvious exception in yesterday's game), they have players who aren't completely inept offensively but sometimes it seems like no one wants to shoot, leading to a bad shot, shot clock violation or turnover because an unexpected pass is fumbled. I too would like to see Gordon and Rose together in the backcourt.

I have to disagree about Thomas, his shot selection was ugly to watch and his blown attempts around the rim were embarrassing. You don't want to take him out of the game too quickly but there's no way he should be putting up jumpers the moment he touches the ball. If he keeps doing that, he's going to shoot John Paxson right out of a job.

Taking Rose out and keeping Thomas in was a mistake. It arguably didn't matter too much in this one because once they had that lead the Celtics weren't going to lose it and would have stopped that run when KG and co got back into the game but you don't want to make a habit of that. As JVG said, let him play and foul out, especially in a game like this. His fourth foul was a bit of a sham though as Rondo was clearly inside the no charge circle but these things happen.

Quite a woeful game, the loss in itself isn't unexpected or too much of a downer in so much as the Celtics are the defending champions but it's still a pretty sorry effort. The starting lineup is too offensively challeneged, you need to have a little more firepower out of the gate so the bench doesn't have to make up a deficit. Here's hoping next week's game against the Cavs will be more fun to watch.

[Valor]

yeah...hoping lebron doesnt rape us too badly.....

[benji]

I like Thabo but he really shouldn't be starting. He's too tentative offensively, passing up too many good looks.

I don't know. I kinda like him starting. He's a defender for the top "wing" player. Gordon we know can produce points no matter what, so playing him starter minutes off the bench is no problem, and gives that second line some scoring. The Bulls can't score, and they need their best scorers on the court most of the time. But if they're doing rotation lines, it's best to balance them so they have some kind of scorers in both starter/reserve lines, instead of playing five guys who can't put the ball in the basket enough. (Not saying Rose and Gordon shouldn't be on the court together at least 20 minutes a game...just that out of the gate, having Sefolosha on that opposing top scorer for six or seven minutes might work better. We don't need Gordon to warm up as he's not that type of player.)

My favorite moment back in 2006-07 was when the Bulls went Wallace-Brown-Thomas-Griffin-Sefolosha during one game because the other guys weren't defending enough for Skiles. They didn't even know who to give it to when they came down on offense.

Rose delivered on the scoring tonight (and Gooden on the boards lulz) but he still hasn't on that "true PG" hype. (Not that I believe in that silly crap.)

Story of the Year still = Hinrich shooting the lights out though. I've never thought he's a starting point guard. He's a third guard/combo guard. Watch him turn my year plus of haterade into a season where he's the Bulls best player.