Chicago Bulls Thread

[cyanide]

I wouldn't have fired him, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the teammates don't like playing for him which could've been a factor.

I agree with Lamrock, though, that it's amazing how Isiah still has a job. The Knicks have the worst upper management in the league.

[shadowgrin]

New Bulls' coach?
Chicago Bulls, meet Jeff Van Gundy!

[Lamrock]

This means that there is a chance that the Bulls might miss the playoffs...

Van Gundy would be a good choice. Is Larry Brown available?

[-Young Buck-]

The bulls shouldnt stop at the coaching. Its clear they have no one that is their #1 superstar. Until they trade for one, or possibly Deng develops into one, they wont win any titles.

I just heard Van Gundy isnt going to take the job. Carlisle and Mike Fretello seem the best intrests right now.

[Ashman23]

Bill Cartwright anyone?

[shadowgrin]

Not Carlisle. Nooo!

Even Fratello. He's the reason why people think team defense is ugly.

[Dan's Brain]

Van Gundy would have been perfect. Rick Carlisle is wrong, I'd rather have Tim Floyd back. Fratello is interesting, he's always seemed to be slightly relaxed, and have a calm demeanour, something of an anti-Skiles.

I'm gonna jump on the Larry Brown bandwagon though. Or if there isnt one yet, i want there to be one.

[shadowgrin]

Fratello interesting?! Are you nuts!?
If Fratello will coach the Bulls, say goodbye to the Bulls' advantage in athleticism because Fratello will slow their game down. Slow. Very, very slow. Slooow.

If Larry Brown is going to be the coach, say goodbye to Tyrus Thomas' development or any other young player development for that matter.

[Cool2Fool]

What a sad Christmas for Scott Skile

[---]

I was completely shocked when I found out. I saw it late because I hadn't been on the net in a while, but wow, what a shock.

I was never firmly on the Fire-Skiles bandwagon, but he frustrated me like never before. I was sick of seeing Tyrus Thomas play an amazing game, be the best player on the court, only to collect a DNP the next game or sit the entire second half. I was sick of him giving Ben Wallace 35 minutes a night when he refused to play defence. I was sick of him not sitting Kirk when he couldn't make a layup, even when his former man crush Duhon was playing his ass off. I was sick of him destroying Thabo's confidence. I was sick of his substitution patterns that seemed to go the complete opposite of what we needed at the time. I was sick his shots at players who didn't deserve them - Tyrus has been a workhorse and the heart of this team, yet he get's the whip in every loss.

I was sick and tired of Skiles.

But I am quick to admit it was not all his fault. His job was made extremely hard by the fact that Ben Wallace, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon and Luol Deng have been nothing short of terrible this season. It's obvious most of the Bulls players are very weak mentally, as Luol now admits his contract talks have gotten in the way of good play. If a team plays bad, even if it's the players in a slump, the coach goes. That's the way it is.

Skiles however, didn't make his job any easier. Instead of taking the guys who are struggling aside, talking to them and instilling confidence in them, he lashed out at guys like Tyrus and Joakim who have played very well, and sat them for entire games while the four guys I mentioned destroyed games single handedly.

Skiles has improved this team from a perennial lottery team to a contender in the East. I thank him for that. But he isn't going to make this team any better.

The players have tuned him out after the way he treats them. This team is mentally weak, but weak or not, the things Skiles did would make any player frustrated. I'm suprised there were no trade demands, especially from a "head-case" like Tyrus.

From here I'm just looking forward to seeing the team salvage the season. I'm not sure who will be hired, but I hope it's someone very anti-Skiles, someone who will play the players who are getting the job done and not challenge the good guys through the media. Someone who will not force a formely promising young player like Thabo into shell (Tyson Chandler anyone?). Someone who will let the team play to their strengths and make smart changes during games. Someone who won't throw in a game at halftime.

As for possible coaches, I don't know.

There's Larry Brown, Rick Carlisle and Jeff Van Gundy. I don't want any of those guys. They have very similar traits to Skiles, I highly doubt they will let guys like Tyrus, Thabo and Joakim play.

Only other guys I can think of are guys like Mike Fratello, Hubie Brown, Doug Collins and Del Harris. Maybe an assistant from a perennial winner like San Antonio who may want a bigger gig.

I would take anyone of these guys over the other three. The three guys are mentioned are no doubt good coaches, but the players need someone fresh and very different to Skiles to adapt to. They tuned out Skiles and most likely wouldn't welcome a similar coach.

Skiles achieved alot during his time in Chicago, but it's time to move on.

[shadowgrin]

Mike Fratello

If Fratello will coach the Bulls, say goodbye to the Bulls' advantage in athleticism because Fratello will slow their game down. Slow. Very, very slow. Slooow.

The Bulls offense will be half-court hell. Hell for the Bulls.

One upside of getting Larry Brown is that Duhon will play great. Larry likes the type of players that Duhon is.

Del Harris and Hubie Brown are interesting choices, but I doubt they'll join the Bulls. Harris is pretty much happy with his salary in Dallas while Hubie has no more interest in coaching, even Jerry West's charms didn't convince Hubie to coach again in Memphis some seasons ago.

How about Brian Hill?

[---]

I'm aware of Fratello's coaching style, but there's no denying he's a good coach. The Bulls may play quite uptempto, but that doesn't change the fact that they are a jumpshooting team - I don't know if a slower, more half-court orientated offence is going to be any worse (or better) because we are still gonna live and die by the jumpshot. These guys don't have their minds in the game, they're missing easy jumpers and playing with no heart. Maybe with Fratello and a grind it out offence it wouldn't be so bad once these guys get into rythm - then again the Bulls best low post scorer is second round pick Aaron Gray, and playing a slow half court offence is usually not a good a idea when that's the case, no matter how great a passer Gray is.

We are better suited to a slow pace though, the only guys I envision playing better in a Suns-like offence are Tyrus, Thabo, Joakim and possibly Lu.

[Axel]

Clearly the Bulls lack a go-to big man, which doesn't make them extremely effective in a half court set. Sure they run off of screens pretty well, but as Boston, and many other good defensive teams have shown, they can be easily shut down when playing strictly in the half-court. I'd like to see the Bulls play a style similar to what the Phoenix Suns played a couple years back when Amare Stoudemire was out with microfracture surgery. Spread the floor with shooters, and get out on the break. Create crossmatches that other teams can't defend against. I'm not sure who out of the available coaches would be best for this kind of style, but I'm sure there is someone available who would coach this way. I mean, how long are we going to hear the same tune about Chicago - moaning about how they have no big man? Utilize what you have, and play a style that minimizes your weaknesses rather than augment them.

I'd like to see a starting rotation of:

PG - Hinrich
SG - Gordon
SF - Nocioni
PF - Deng
C - Thomas

Yeah they're small, but you've got two lanky players in Luol and Tyrus, who can create some havoc with their athleticism. Their size is comprable to what Phoenix had a couple of seasons back. What makes this team better though is the fact that if they needed to switch to a defensive mode (to preserve a lead, or stop a dominant post threat), they could do so with Big Ben.

Just throwing it out there. I doubt that Paxon will go for it though.

[Indy]

Del Harris would really be a great fit, but I agree that he won't be leaving Dallas any time soon.

Carlisle actually probably would be a good fit for the Bulls and I hope he isn't the next Chicago coach for the sake of the Pacers playoff position. Rick and Skiles are complete opposites when it comes to how they treat players. Rick is extremely leniant the the point that he really doesn't discipline players at all. I think the Bulls would welcome that drastic change and respond incredibly to him, which would be bad news to the rest of the East.

[---]

I don't think a fast tempo like the Suns would work. Look at the roster and compare it to the Suns in 04-05:

PG - Hinrich
SG - Gordon
SF - Nocioni
PF - Deng
C - Thomas

PG - Nash
SG - Bell
SF - Diaw
PF - Marion
C - Thomas

Hinrich is the complete opposite of what you want in a fastbreak offence. He's just a undersized shooting guard with a good feel for the PG position. He's the guy you get sick of for dribbling out the shot clock or not passing on the break. If we are gonna play a fastbreak style offence, Hinrich just plain needs to go. The problem is, he's having a terrible season and there's no way Pax get's fair value for him.

At shooting guard we have Bell and Gordon, good shooters who stretch the defence. They would play pretty similar roles, but Gordon is much better at creating a shot for himself and is just plain a better scorer. Problem? Gordon needs the ball in his hands much, much more. Bell is almost strictly a spot up shooter. Gordon's the better player, but Bells the better fit in the Suns offence.

Small forward pits Nocioni against Diaw. Both guys are pretty versatile with inside-outside games, I'd say they would have roughly the same impact, just in different ways. However, in a Suns-style offence, ball movement and unselfishness is very important, and Noc loves to shoot. Once he get's the ball, passing isn't an option high on his list.

Luol versus Marion is interesting. Both have similar offensive games, scoring in the flow of the offence and are very dynamic. Defensively, Marion takes the cake, but Lu is no slough. Marion is far and away the better athlete, which means more when your playing a such a fast pace. Marion is the perfect fit with his ability to run the floor, catch and finish or hit open jumpers on the perimeter. Lu does many of the same things, but not as well.

At center, Tyrus is interesting, but I highly doubt it would work. He's not very strong, and he's only about 6'8-6'9, despite his long arms and athleticism. He's a great defensively player - a game changer in that regard, and he's a fantastic passer and rebounder. How often do you see your raw 6'9 sophomore forward running the break and dropping some crazy passes for easy buckets? Offensively, he'd be great in a Suns syle offence. Defensively he could have alot of problems because he is undersized and weak. Pretty much every center in the league could just push him far enough underneath the basket that his chances of blocking a shot are extremely low, and the Bulls don't have the help defenders to come in and make big plays defensively (Tyrus would be perfect in that role). Interesting, but a big question mark.

Even if the Bulls had the right personall from SG-C, Kirk Hinrich would need to be traded. He could not run a fast paced offence like guys like Jose Calderon, Steve Nash, TJ Ford or Baron Davis. He doesn't make smart decisions on the fast break, he's not great with the pick-and-roll and he tends to overdribble alot. If Hinrich could be moved or packaged in a deal for a guy like the four I just mentioned, maybe it could work. But is it worth it? How many championships have the Phoenix Suns won?

[Axel]

If Hinrich is the only part keeping Bulls from playing an uptempo game, Duhon could be inserted into the starting lineup, and Hinrich could come off the bench.

The Bulls might not be as effective at the uptempo game as Phoenix, Golden State, etc, but don't you think they're better suited at that pace than the one they're playing at now?

Even if the Bulls had the right personall from SG-C, Kirk Hinrich would need to be traded. He could not run a fast paced offence like guys like Jose Calderon, Steve Nash, TJ Ford or Baron Davis. He doesn't make smart decisions on the fast break, he's not great with the pick-and-roll and he tends to overdribble alot. If Hinrich could be moved or packaged in a deal for a guy like the four I just mentioned, maybe it could work. But is it worth it? How many championships have the Phoenix Suns won?

They haven't won any championships. But I'm just posing solutions that are within the current roster.

[---]

Duhon isn't exactly the kind of point you'd want in the type of offence your talking about, but personally I think he'd be a better fit than Hinrich, although not by much.

Personally I think the Bulls are better playing how they play now. There's far to many question marks with this team in regards to playing uptempo. The only thing it really helps us with is the fact there's no big time low post player, and I have my doubt about anyone atacking the rim even in a Suns style offence - most of the guys just aren't naturally aggresive.

If the guys get out of this slump and play the exact style they did last season, the Bulls will be fine. This team has shown it can win a bunch of games in the regular season and challenge the big guns in the playoffs. No one wants to play the Bulls come playoff time.

This time round, the BUlls got off to a slow start, but it was very different. They weren't just losing, they were getting blown out. The players weren't just missing, they were on a different planet. As Ben Wallace said, "Skiles gave up on us so we gave up on him". This team has the talent to go places, but the team tuned out the coach. I say bring in an interim head coach, play the same way and re-evaluate come seasons end. Obviously a head coach will be needed, but I hope management doesn't think about roster or playing style changes till seasons end.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Tyrus alot more and hopefully Ben Wallace' resurgence.

[CMJ3]

Bulls Ready To Deal Wallace?
December 26, 2007 - 7:24 am

Serious trade talk typically doesn't begin until January in the NBA, but logic would suggest Chicago Bulls general manager John Paxson is ready to explore ways to trade center Ben Wallace.

The Bulls would have to pay a premium, but one positive is that his contract was front-loaded, which means from the original $60 million deal, he's owed $28.5 million over the next two seasons.

"Change is not always bad," Wallace said after Saturday's dismal 116-98 home loss to Houston. "If everybody wants to be here, we have to step it up."

The most obvious trade targets for the Bulls are New Jersey Nets point guard Jason Kidd and Memphis Grizzlies center Pau Gasol.

Interesting, maybe they could send Kirk aswell and pick up one of the Grizz stock at PG like Conley Jr who seems to be getting 0 minutes??

[Indy]

Personally I think the Bulls are better playing how they play now. There's far to many question marks with this team in regards to playing uptempo. The only thing it really helps us with is the fact there's no big time low post player, and I have my doubt about anyone atacking the rim even in a Suns style offence - most of the guys just aren't naturally aggresive.

You are 100% correct, which is why Rick Carlisle is the perfect fit for this Bulls team. Rick's biggest flaw with the Pacers was that offensively he fell too much in love with structuring the offense and using the "dump-it-to-JO-and watch" offense. The Bulls don't have a go to guy like that who Rick could misuse, I just see his Xs and Os having a tremendous effect on the Bulls players, and the first time he tells them they can stay out as late as they want and do anything they want they will fall in love and that will be dangerous.

I'm going to shut up now in fear that Paxon reads this thread.

[---]

After looking into it further, I think Carlisle is my man. I never remember him beating down his players mentally - something that was just grown tired of and misused in Chicago by Scott Skiles. No doubt, Rick is a great coach - what he did in Detroit and Indiana were nothing short of great - but all the Bulls really need is a coach who will allow the team to play. I'm not talking about having a coach control the game and have set plays every time down the floor, that's fine. I'm talking about a coach who will make the right subsitutions, develop the young guys and give them a chance, leaving personal problems off the court - in the example of Tyrus Thomas, it became obvious Skiles just personally didn't like him. He'd be the best player on the floor and post 20/10 one game, and get a DNP CD the next.

If Carlisle is the man, I just want him to come in, keep the style the same, play around with rotations a bit, play the guys who deserve it and not be such a dictator mentally and through the media.

This team has the talent and Skiles was a very good coach during his tenure in Chicago, but his negatives far outweighed his positives this season. He wasn't using the roster properly and fairly, and it cost him his job. If the new coach, whoever it may be, can do the things I mentioned just before, the Bulls should be back to their old selves sooner rather than later.

Indy - how was Carlisle with the young talent? I listened to Pax on the Score today and he stressed that Tyrus and Thabo need to play, so if Rick isn't great in that regard I would not call him a great candidate. Everything else with him seems great though.

To finish up on this post I just wanna remind everyone of a little quote from an NBA scout on Tyrus Thomas...

"If he can survive Skiles and doesn't get beat down, he'll be a beast."

I'm looking forward to seeing this kid bloom.

[Indy]

Indy - how was Carlisle with the young talent? I listened to Pax on the Score today and he stressed that Tyrus and Thabo need to play, so if Rick isn't great in that regard I would not call him a great candidate. Everything else with him seems great though.

He doesn't have the best track record in that regard at all. He started Michael Curry over Tayshaun Prince in Detroit. He had Shawne Williams in a suit for the entire first half of the season last year, and he actually made his debut in Chicago and scored 15 points. On the other hand, he developed Danny Granger very well his first year.

I think with Rick you'd see plenty of Tyrus though because Tyrus is a guy that can be a game changer with his shotblocking ability. Rick loves having athletes defensively which is why he wanted to keep Jonathan Bender untill JB called it quits on his own finally. I'm not sure how he'd handle Thabo, and I guarantee you the Aaron Gray minutes would evaporate.

So with Rick you'd be hiring a guy that would bring the Bulls back to the playoffs this year, but he's not a long term solution.

[puttincomputers]

Quote:
Ben Wallace said Saturday he would welcome personnel changes if it would help the club.

"That's one of those things that goes along with this league," said Wallace. "Change is not always bad. If everybody wants to be here we have to step it up and go out there and play basketball."

anyone still like wallace?

[shadowgrin]

I guarantee you the Aaron Gray minutes would evaporate.

Boo! Aaron Gray must play.

Reading the analysis of the Bulls playing style in this thread, one coach came to mind. Jim O'Brien. Too bad Indiana is enjoying him.

[Indy]

I guarantee you the Aaron Gray minutes would evaporate.

Boo! Aaron Gray must play.

Reading the analysis of the Bulls playing style in this thread, one coach came to mind. Jim O'Brien. Too bad Indiana is enjoying him.

My philosophy is that when you are going to make a coaching change there are 2 areas where a coach relates to players. You must keep one of those things the same, and drastically change the other. I think you have to abide by this ESPECIALLY when you're talking about a midseason change.

1.) Xs and Os, the coaches general philosophy on how to play the game.
Skiles: Pressure the ball, work extremely hard defensively and have a solid half-court offense. They did not run the ball excessively.

2.) Player relations. The way a coach deals with the players individually.
Skiles: Probably the biggest hard ass in the NBA.

[Axel]

Personally I think the Bulls are better playing how they play now. There's far to many question marks with this team in regards to playing uptempo. The only thing it really helps us with is the fact there's no big time low post player, and I have my doubt about anyone atacking the rim even in a Suns style offence - most of the guys just aren't naturally aggresive.

The only thing? That's a pretty big thing. In fact, thats the thing that keeps 90% of the league from even contending for a championship. If you can minimize it at least you have a chance of being successful.

You have your doubts about them attacking the rim in an uptempo offense. As in what? They can't score in the fast break? They're too timid to dunk? Plus I'm a little confused by your comment. Not naturally aggressive? Isn't that what got the Bulls into the playoffs the last 3 seasons? The aggression and hard nosed play which carried over from the head coach? They might seem a little resigned to losing this year, but cmon, its there.

Continue to be doubtful about them in an uptempo game, and I'll remain steadfast that they're going nowhere in a hurry as a perimeter team that can't penetrate into the lane and get easy scores. If they get Rick Carlislie, then what? Are they going to feel better as they take contested 3pt shots? I guess maybe he won't bitch them out about having the fewest points per 100 possessions in the league?

Either the Bulls find a low post scorer, or they change their offensive attack. They've never been very good offensively, and with Ben Wallace being a team cancer again, they're not really that great defensively (10 ppg worse than Boston by comparsion).

The Bulls remind me a lot of the Nets teams of the past few years since they got rid of K-Mart. Remember how explosive the Nets were on the break back then? They ran when they had the opportunities, but they were still a solid defensive team. That got them a couple of NBA Finals appearances. Now though, Lawrence Frank has the team playing this mucked up half-court offense without the aid of a big man, and they've been pretty much mediocre during his entire tenure. They can't score, even with Jason Kidd in this offense. If they had Byron Scott back though, I'm sure they'd have at least a .500 record this point in the season. Same thing goes for the Bulls, I think. Give them a coach that is flexible enough to coach to the strengths of the team, and maybe they'll win more than 9 games.