Chicago Bulls Thread

[---]

I actually want to keep Ben. He may have a big deal and is aging, but look at the Bulls defence this season. Not many teams were as good as Chicago defensively and I send most of the credit Ben's way despite the accusations of him being an "ex-dominant" defensive player.

The Bulls were a good defensive team last season, but this season this team reached elite level. What did Chicago add to take the defence up to elite standards? Tyrus Thomas was a monster defensively but he was only playing 13 minutes a game. Thabo is a good defender but he barely played 12 minutes per. The rest of the core has been here for a few years now. It's Ben Wallace that pushed this team up a level.

[Andrew]

It's not really a matter of choice when it comes to keeping Wallace since his contract would make him difficult to move but I agree there shouldn't be any rush to get rid of him.

[Sauru]

ben wallace was a bad idea by the bulls imo, that money could have been spent elsewhere and it would have yielded much better returns.

The price tag is making that signing look a lot worse, even though Wallace didn't have a terrible year when it was all said and done. Tyson Chandler's revival in New Orleans doesn't help matters though I still don't think the Bulls would be getting the same performance from him.

i agree that chandler also was not the right choice for the bulls as i also dont think he would have played the same way. sometimes it takes a player being traded to wake them up so they actually go to work out there. i just think ben wallace was highly overpaid and i also think he is, or was rather, highly overrated. i think he was a great piece on a great team but being on that great team made him look alot better than he actually is.

[air gordon]

probably not as many as you, but from the games i have i come to those conclusions. The reason I am doubtful of a gordon-hinrich pairing is because there have been small backcourts in nba history of equal or greater talent, and even they were not able to muster anything other than indivdual statistics. I don't think there is precedent for a championship fullt-time small backcourt in nba history - especially when the league itself is getting bigger. optimism is a beautiful thing, but history has merit.

how many games is that then?

...unprecedented??
'88-90 Detroit Pistons- Zeke, Joe D, Microwave
93'95 Houston Rockets- Maxwell, Smith, Cassell
'86 Boston Celts- Ainge, DJ
'78-79 Sonics- Gus Williams, Ainge
history has merit

and as mentioned in my previous post- in recent years small backcourts have fared well. scroll up. additionally the league is playing "smaller": less true post scorers and a lot big men becoming more perimeter oriented.

offensively I have no doubt they could hold their own, but defensively a small backcourt imho creates too many problems - especially against a well coached team that forces switches. Can they get close to a championship? Perhaps - but is close really good enough? Because built on this core, imho that is their best upside. Close.

the problem with the bulls wasn't the switches- it was that the pistons big men could hit perimeter shots. it's a rarity for a team to have both big men being able to hit 3's/deep perimeter shots

I'm a cautiously optimistic bulls fan but when you look at the East and it's "powerhouse" teams, they are close to contending for a championship. if Tyrus Thomas and thabo improve at least marginally, they should be favorites to win the East. at this point of Pax's regime, myself and a lot of bulls fans will be happy with that

I think duhon could be a core guy if the other guard were a combo guard who demands the ball, i.e. ben gordon. I don't think he can create, but I do think he is good for making the pass that leads to a pass that leads to a point, as well as bringing the ball up, and if coached well, I think he has the tools to be one of the better defensive guards. I by no means think he is capable of putting up star guard numbers, but history has shown that championship teams do not require star pg numbers. Then again, I may also be unfairly influenced by his duke background.

with all due respect, this is just ridiculous. watch more bulls games. Duhon's shortcomings are due to Duhon, not Scott Skiles. on offense, his job is just to distribute the ball and hit the open jumper off a screen or kick out. Duhon would get scared if he missed his first jumper and just not even bother looking at the basket after that. you are influenced by his duke background. players that shoot >40 fg% that play good defense/distribute the ball are a dime a dozen.

imho, if I personally were the gm, I would stop settling. it just seems like they are settling, they need to take a risk here - none of the players they have are dominant offensively or defensively (ben wallace WAS, but he no longer is). They need somebody who can take conrol of the game, and turn it at any given moment. I don't think they have that right now, and i don't think deng or hinrich will evolve into that. Perhaps gordon, but i'd prefer a big who can do it more consistently.

the team has improved each year since Paxson has taken over. His draft record is solid. if settling is that and winning 49 games and advancing to the 2nd round, i'll take it.

but we can play the hindsight game- exaclty what risks do YOU think they should have taken since Paxson has over?? Since you know so much about the team, right?

give Al Harrington, Peja, etc big contracts? trade Deng AND Gordon for Gasol? keep and give Chandler/Curry near max contracts? Keep Jalen rose, Jerome Williams, Eddie Robinson, Antonio Davis, etc instead of clearing up the cap? be in the position to draft Nate Robinson istead of getting Deng?

and yes every team needs that superstar type player but they don't grow on trees. Pax has done a solid job with the cards he's been dealt.

[Sauru]

i think when he says the league is getting bigger he means players of every position is getting taller. we are seeing 7 footers playing the 3 now, though i dont want to speak for him, thats just how i took it.

anyway i think small backcourts can win if the 2 players are talented enough but if they run into a team with 2 very talented guards who are bigger than its gonna be damn hard for the smaller guys

[magius]

how many games is that then?

...unprecedented??
'88-90 Detroit Pistons- Zeke, Joe D, Microwave
93'95 Houston Rockets- Maxwell, Smith, Cassell
'86 Boston Celts- Ainge, DJ
'78-79 Sonics- Gus Williams, Ainge
history has merit Wink

88-90 pistons - this is somewhat true relative to our time, but it is unfair to compare player size relative to our time. Relative to his time, dumars was hardly undersized as a sg. but the pistons also had a working back to back dpoy in rodman, along with laimbeer. Not to mention that neiher dumars or isiah could be conceived as a defensive liability. Also, though it is beside the point (regarding precedence), neither hinrich or gordon are close to the talent level of isiah and dumars on either end of the court.

93-95 rockets - first of all 95 rockets also had drex. Second of all this team was not built, nor relied on their guards like the bulls are. There was this little something called hakeem..... Let me clarify, I am not saying that a small backcourt cannot work, period - only that it cannot work if a team is built around it.

86 celtcs - same thing on two points - relative to his time, ainge was not undersized, and bird was the focal point, not to mention the severely underrated parish.

and as mentioned in my previous post- in recent years small backcourts have fared well. scroll up. additionally the league is playing "smaller": less true post scorers and a lot big men becoming more perimeter oriented.

like sauru said, the league may be playing smaller, but the players are bigger.

the problem with the bulls wasn't the switches- it was that the pistons big men could hit perimeter shots. it's a rarity for a team to have both big men being able to hit 3's/deep perimeter shots

I disagree. That series was decided by the wings. If you look at the statistics, the two games the pistons lost were the two games that prince and rip played badly - the two players who could hurt the bulls the most off switches. The four games they won, rip and prince played very, very well. Coincidentally, the two games the bulls won were gordon's and hinrich's best games. Neither shot over 39 percent for the series.

sheed and dice were obviously a factor, but neithers production varied as much as the guards between wins and losses. Obviously the bulls could value from having someone like rasheed.... but that is what i have been saying all along.

'm a cautiously optimistic bulls fan but when you look at the East and it's "powerhouse" teams, they are close to contending for a championship. if Tyrus Thomas and thabo improve at least marginally, they should be favorites to win the East. at this point of Pax's regime, myself and a lot of bulls fans will be happy with that

I'm a cautiously optimistic bulls fan but when you look at the East and it's "powerhouse" teams, they are close to contending for a championship. if Tyrus Thomas and thabo improve at least marginally, they should be favorites to win the East. at this point of Pax's regime, myself and a lot of bulls fans will be happy with that

by "contending for a championship" do you mean like how cleveland "contended for a championship?" I am not sure they are favorites anywhere but in chicago.

with all due respect, this is just ridiculous. watch more bulls games. Duhon's shortcomings are due to Duhon, not Scott Skiles.

I never said that skiles could not do it, I was just saying that i think he could develop into that type of player. I'm sure skiles could do it.

on offense, his job is just to distribute the ball and hit the open jumper off a screen or kick out.

thats what i want from my second guard if I have another star guard.

the team has improved each year since Paxson has taken over. His draft record is solid. if settling is that and winning 49 games and advancing to the 2nd round, i'll take it.

i wouldn't, because i don't think building around the current team will result in a championship.

but we can play the hindsight game- exaclty what risks do YOU think they should have taken since Paxson has over?? Since you know so much about the team, right? Wink

I don't want to play the hindsight game. I would like to see him make a run for gasol or garnett, yes - even if it means throwing 2 of the big 3 for them.

[maes]

I was one who wasn't thrilled w/ the Ben signing initially (from the perspective we needed a franchise playmaker/scorer, we didn't need more defense) but by the season's end i've really warmed up to what Ben does for the team.

It initially seems like he made little impact because Chicago was the 3rd best defensive team in terms of FG% with Chandler, and they're also 3rd best with Ben.

But the huge difference is that now we're maintaining that elite FG% defense without fouling. With Tyson, the Bulls were the 2nd worst fouling team in the league (29 of 30) and 4th worst in drawing fouls. With Ben, Chicago has made huge improvements, most noticeably being 19th in the league in fouling. And if you remember how Tyson played he was a big part of that...some games i was afraid he'd foul out in the 1st quarter. Remember the 05-06 season and how many games the Bulls lost because the other team continually went to the line on us.

The other big addition is that (ok don't laugh) you can actually run a little offense through Ben (not ending with him). He averaged 2.4 assists...which is about the same as Lu and better than Noc. Outside of the two Point Guards Kirk & Duhon, guess who has the highest Assist/TO ratio on our team? Yeah the big guy.

So overall, he maintains the same kind of defense Tyson did, but does NOT foul excessively like Chandler, he himself draws more fouls than Chandler (although negated by his bad FT%), and is much more part of the offense, in at least moving the ball into the right place.

So after 82 games, i really like Ben on the team. All he has to do is take a paycut and he's perfect =P

[Sauru]

i do agree he is a upgrade over chandler, just not for the price tag. then again i am sure chander would have wanted too much money also

[Andrew]

I guess it comes down to whom you overpay: Chandler or Wallace. It's kind of a toss up as to which is worse, overpaying an aging player for four years or overpaying a young player who isn't producing (thus diminishing an otherwise decent trade prospect) for five or six more years. Seeing as though it took a trade to wake Chandler up and Wallace is the player with the All-Star appearances, DPOY awards and a championship ring who's older but still productive, I think it's a call you have to live with.

[maes]

Random Stat:
Players that average 50%+ FG percentage while still taking over 1000 shots:

Eddy Curry
Amare Stoudemire
Carlos Boozer
Tim Duncan
Elton Brand
Shawn Marion
Tony Parker
Luol Deng
Dirk Nowitzki

Close but no cigar:
Chris Bosh
Dwayne Wade

That's some serious company Deng is in.

[Andrew]

Good company indeed, curbing his three point attempts definitely panned out this season.

[Fenix]

I haven't posted in this thread for a while now. Well, here we go:

The good:
- Luol Deng is great and he has plenty of potential left. He doesn't have that freakish athleticism to become the next MJ, but he's just so bloody talented as a basketball player. He's got the ideal height and elite length at the position and still enough athleticism to use whatever skill he may develop. And there's going to be a lot of those. His midrange jumpshot is already scary and he is extremelly good at moving off the ball. If you add some more weight and a post game to a player like that, he's going to be scary. And looking at his frame and knowing how hardworking this guy is, he's most definitely going to do just that. He's going to end up being one of the most versatile players in the League, someone who can score inside and outside, defend bigger and smaller players and he won't need ball in his hands to be effective. A perfect 2nd banana.
- Kirk Hinrich became more efficient.
- Ben Gordon became more efficient and proved ready to be a starter.
- Thabo Sefolosha is showing signs of being a capable starter in the future. He can handle the ball, pass, defend and slash and he has potential as a spot up shooter. Becoming the next Doug Christie is a realistic scenario for him.
- Tyrus is going to be a stud. He's just so bloody athletic and he proved this year than he has more than enough size (height/length-wise) and enough room on his frame to not be pushed around in the post in the future. He's also most probably the best athlete in the League. Josh Smith is slightly bulkier, but also slower laterally and give TT some time and he'll pack just the same enough of muscle. His instincts on the defensive end give him potential to be one of the best defensive players this League has ever seen, not to mention that he shows Marion-like talents on offense. He's great at scoring off the ball and going to the line. If you watched him play in SL games, you'd know how much potential this guy has.

The bad:
- Big Ben. He's getting old and while he's still better than Chandler was, he's still overpaid. At least our young guys can learn from him and he's a winner with a short contract.
- Chris Duhon. He's a drunk.
- No frontcourt depth.
- Undersized backcourt.
- That miraculous shot of Eddy Curry. If he didn't hit that one, we could have own the position in the Lottery that would get us Greg Oden.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to the draft with hopes that:
- we aren't trading for Kobe.
- we aren't trading Tyrus.
- we aren't drafting Noah.

That is all.

[Ashman23]

Good post Fenix and I agree with you on all points. What do you think we'd get for trading Duhon?
Could trading Gordon for inside presence (Zach Randolph?) and drafting a true PG free up Hinrich? Would we be a better team as a result?

[Fenix]

First of all, Gordon will NOT be traded for Zach Randolph. People should stop saying that. Paxson said that he doesn't want to break our core. Sure, a post scorer is needed, but Randolph is not the answer. There were rumours that Paxson considers Deng and Tyrus untouchable and all signs are saying that that is our forward combo of the future. Randolph is a PF and that is the only position he can play. He doesn't fit our future plans (plays the same position as Tyrus), he doesn't fit our philosophy (Paxson loves guys with winning mentalities and blue collar attitude who play good defense), doesn't play defense and is too short to make Big Ben's froncourt buddy. Paxson indeed said that we will (try to) get a post scorer, either trough trade or draft. Considering Paxson doesn't love to make trades unless he's on the winning end of it and that all of the bigs on the market (Gasol, KG, Randolph, JO) come with a too big of a price ticket attached to them or don't fit our plans or we simply do not have the trade assets to get them (namely expiring contracts), I believe draft is going to be the way Paxson chooses. I'll make a bold guess and say he'll draft down and draft Splitter or he'll keep the pick and draft Hawes. But then again, Duhon and Nocioni could be gonners in a trade that gets us a higher pick or a decent big man.

[Ashman23]

Ok, good insight. I've been reading up on Hawes and I'm just not convinced but, hey we're not picking number one and getting Oden so nine can be a real difficult spot to get someone to help the team from day one. Seems as though the only way to get a true PF will be with some hard work and cunning on Paxson's part.

[Sauru]

i cant wait for this years draft, i am actually excited about it

[air gordon]

magius-

It goes without saying that most of the teams I listed had other good players on that team.. some more better. I was merely pointing out ‘small’ backcourts have won in the past. And of course I was not insinuating that Gordon or Hinrich were on the level of Dumars or Zeke

i should say that Detroit team is somewhat similar to this current team. The Pistons did not have a dominating post scorer. Edwards was solid but not someone you would double team. Aguirre and his big rump was good, but not a true post scorer. The ‘best’ players were pg & sg. I don’t want to go on with the Dumars height argument but I will say he was shorter/smaller then more then half the guys he had to guard that were SG’s

are the current NBA players truly playing bigger? More specifically are guards? I don’t think so. The guards now may be bench pressing more weight then in the past but with the exception of a small number, there aren’t that many guards with polished post games.

I forgot about the Glide on the 95 team, but the year before it was the jet, mad max, and a young but still ugly Cassell as the backcourt…


If you were watching the games- the bulls were mostly not switching off of Prince and Rip. Prince was getting his points by either posting up or getting open looks from the Pistons swinging the ball. Rip was doing his usual damage- curling off of double screens. Watch the game tape- it was Rasheed hitting big shots in beginning & end of the series. Even webber in first 2 games

Lol obviously any kind of scoring from the big men would have helped the Bulls..

Too bad the Cavs got spanked in the finals. However you can’t win a championship if you can’t get to the finals. Bulls fans would much rather have the opportunities then be some middling team or be in salary cap hell or an arrogant team with talent on it’s way down in a weak eastern conference. .

What you see is what you get with Duhon. but you can be Duhon’s agent if you want

i wouldn't, because i don't think building around the current team will result in a championship.

Hey I’m not sure myself but they are heading in the right direction and the salary cap situation isn’t bad either. there is a slight sense of urgency with Big Ben...

you still think Duhon is a “core” player??!! You want your 2nd guard to be a career >40fg% shooter who doesn’t even look at the basket if he misses his first few shots? Ok that’s enough about that

Who do you think realistically the bulls should trade for KG or Gasol?? By gutting the team do you think that new roster would be better then the current one… and that’s not even factoring the salary cap implications

[Andrew]

Good to see you again Fenix.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to the draft with hopes that:
- we aren't trading for Kobe.
- we aren't trading Tyrus.
- we aren't drafting Noah.

I definitely agree on the first two. Any feasible deals for Kobe would basically involve about half the core going to LA and even if Kobe is arguably the best player in the league, the team is still going to be severely depleted. I suppose when a player of that magnitude wants out a GM would be a fool not to send out some feelers but it's not a move the Bulls should be actively trying to get done. Who's to say Kobe wouldn't opt out in 2009 if the situation in Chicago didn't please him? The Bulls would be back to square one.

Thomas was quite impressive in the second half of the season, even in fairly limited minutes. I still think he's good for about eight points a game on lobs alone, plus he's shown a couple of other moves at the offensive end from time to time. As air gordon has said in the past he's a true energy player rather than a guy who simply pounds his chest or flexes his arm after a dunk and he could prove to be an effective defender in the paint.

I don't follow the NCAA closely enough to offer much of a comment on Noah. Over the past couple of years I've heard good things but then I've also read that he seems to be reaching his ceiling which needless to say isn't what the Bulls should be looking for in a rookie.

[air gordon]

amen to Duhon being a drunk and not drafting Noah!

crazy thing is- if noah gets drafted, i'll be fine with it because i trust Pax's judgement haha

only way i'm for getting #24 or whatever next number he chooses is if he truly forces a trade (refuses to go come to camp/not play) and the Bulls don't end up as a central division version of the current lakers

he'd be stupid to not come to the East. i'm sure every team in that conf. will be making offers.

limiting turnovers/fouls (which he did post all star break), getting stronger, and making a jumpshot (his % on jumpshots was a ridiculously low # yeesh)... if Thomas could get the first 2 down- he should see at least 20-25 minutes a game next year

[Andrew]

only way i'm for getting #24 or whatever next number he chooses is if he truly forces a trade (refuses to go come to camp/not play) and the Bulls don't end up as a central division version of the current lakers

Agreed, a "Vince Carter to New Jersey"-like situation would be far preferable to gutting the team.

[Ashman23]

I just can't see Kobe in a Bulls uniform. If is was a simple swap or a draft pick or two the fine, but I couldn't see the Lakers doing it. Unless forced to.

Just on the PF situation, could we realistically get Amare Stoudemire? Anyone?

[magius]

air gordon, in this case, for the most part, i can live and let live, i've stated my argument, most of it won't change, though you may have swayed me slightly with your utter vehemence against duhon.

there are a few things though -

are the current NBA players truly playing bigger? More specifically are guards? I don’t think so. The guards now may be bench pressing more weight then in the past but with the exception of a small number, there aren’t that many guards with polished post games.

again, i didn't say that the players were 'playing bigger,' rather that they are - physically - bigger.

you still think Duhon is a “core” player??!! You want your 2nd guard to be a career >40fg% shooter who doesn’t even look at the basket if he misses his first few shots? Ok that’s enough about that

I think he could develop into one, in the manner of eric snow.

Who do you think realistically the bulls should trade for KG or Gasol?? By gutting the team do you think that new roster would be better then the current one… and that’s not even factoring the salary cap implications

for kg - any two of the big three. for gasol i would hesitate a bit before offering deng, but if memphis wanted any of the two guards i would not blink twice; basically, one of the big three, and work up from there.

[Andrew]

I just can't see Kobe in a Bulls uniform. If is was a simple swap or a draft pick or two the fine, but I couldn't see the Lakers doing it. Unless forced to.

Just on the PF situation, could we realistically get Amare Stoudemire? Anyone?

Not before the Draft, unless the Bulls give up half the core to match Amare's salary and that's not going to leave them in any better shape than trading half the core for Kobe. That's the problem with these scenarios, not only is it a matter of overpaying to pry these players away from their teams but it would also have to be done to work under the cap, which doesn't make for a very good swap in my view.

[---]

Well, it looks like Kobe is going to be a Bull. A couple weeks back I was completely opposed to trading a package including Deng and Gordon for Kobe. I still am.

However, I love the idea of Gordon, picks, fillers, etc for Kobe, which the Lakers are pretty much being forced into doing.

As long as the Bulls roster still has the names Tyrus Thomas, Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng on it, I welcome Kobe and look forward to seeing him in a Bulls jersey.

[rl564411]

[quote="Shannon"]Well, it looks like Kobe is going to be a Bull. A couple weeks back I was completely opposed to trading a package including Deng and Gordon for Kobe. I still am.

However, I love the idea of Gordon, picks, fillers, etc for Kobe, which the Lakers are pretty much being forced into doing.

As long as the Bulls roster still has the names Tyrus Thomas, Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng on it, I welcome Kobe and look forward to seeing him in a Bulls jersey.[/quote]

Agree!
I'll be happy to give up gordon/nocioni, benchwarmers and picks but not Hinrich, Tyrus or Deng!