Who's a top 10 NBA Player?

[benji]

Elton Brand. He's been stuck in hell the last 4 years

Really? Compared to his first four years in the league?

[[Q]]

Elton Brand. He's been stuck in hell the last 4 years

Really? Compared to his first four years in the league?

if you consider the 2nd rd of the playoffs hell, then i guess you're right.

[hova-]

maceo24, quite good list, only player I had in my list that you have not is Allen Iverson. I think he has just something none of your players have .. a guard who is able to draw contact and will still hit most of his shots, who plays just hard.

[LakersRule24]

However, Wade DOES carry. Alot. But he's a fantastic player, absolutely worthy of Top 5 mention.

5 guys easily better than Wade.

Kobe
Duncan
Garnett
Lebron
Kidd

Top 10, but definitely not a top 5 player.

[benji]

How is Kidd better than Wade?

[cyanide]

How is Kidd better than Wade?

Durr.

Kidd
Years Pro: 13

Wade
Years Pro: 4

Kidd > Wade.

[LakersRule24]

One of the greatest playmakers in history, much better defender, led his team to the NBA Finals twice without the help of the zebras, 5 time all NBA player, 9 time all defensive NBA player, plays on both ends of the court.

[benji]

So, let's see.
-One skill.
-A statement no longer true as it is not 2004 anymore.
-Team accomplishment.
-Opinion, and past accomplishments.
-Opinion, and past accomplishments.
-So does Wade.

And what of that makes Kidd better than Wade now? Should I be talking about Wilt as the best player in the league today, I mean look at all he did in the past...

[Indy]

There is not a single GM in the NBA that would rather have Jason Kidd then Dwyane Wade.

I'm not a Wade jock rider either. I don't think he is a top 5 player in this league, but I think he's a top 6.

[BigKaboom2]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... 2frankings

kevC and benji win, if you buy into Hollinger's stuff.

[benji]

How do I win?

[BigKaboom2]

Defending Wade, of course.

[benji]

It is just projected PER though?

[Matt]

Kobe
Duncan
Garnett
Lebron
Kidd

Yes
Yes
No
Maybe
No

[maceo24]

maceo24, quite good list, only player I had in my list that you have not is Allen Iverson. I think he has just something none of your players have .. a guard who is able to draw contact and will still hit most of his shots, who plays just hard.

I know, I just couldnt find a spot for him on the list, I didnt think I could drop anyone to add him.

@ Benji - lol, point taken. Chi-town couldnt have been much fun either.

@ Qballer - The clippers, no matter what, will ALWAYS be basketball purgatory.

@ lakersrule - Theres alot of hate in your blood, bro. I have a feeling that if Wade was laker you'd be all over him.

Wade was dynamite in HS, was dynamite in college, is dynamite now, and like lebron and carmelo, will only get better from here. He and Gilbert Arenas are the two best combination guards in the world. Not pure points like Kidd, not pure shooters like Allen, but enough of both skills to be VERY good in EITHER position.

[BigKaboom2]

It is just projected PER though?

Which is based on stats, etc.....so if you like Hollinger's zany formulas he predicts that Yao and Wade will have the best PER this season, thus providing ammunition for the "top NBA players" debate.

[LakersRule24]

No(Garnett)

Why? Because he plays on a team of scrubs? I can't wait until Garnett proves what he can do on a good team this season when he plays with the Celtics. He has always been overlooked because he plays on a lottery team. He will win MVP this year.

And I actually liked Wade in the 03-04 season when he was a Heat. I believed he was one of the most underrated players in the league at the time.

[Matt]

Wade > Garnett because Wade is just a flat out winner. I'll take Garnett for the 1st 3 Q's but in the 4th Wade wins it hands down. The guy steps up to the occassion, he's a real winner. Garnett fades in the clutch.....

[maceo24]

No(Garnett)

He will win MVP this year.

That might be a stretch. It will be even harder because of how loaded the starting lineup is.

What changed your opinion of Wade so much in 3 years? If he's improved then (which he has), how could your feelings on him gone to the polar opposite? I'm not a Wade nut, but i recognize a special talent when I see one, and this talent places him in the top 5 RIGHT NOW.

Not counting previous exploits, going on talent and performance level RIGHT NOW, how can he not make that list?

[Abctest123]

(keep in mind its 2:15am, and I'm pretty damn tired and I'm also suppose to be doing some Physics homework)

I don't have much to say in this thread other than to bring up one point that LakersRule24 sort of did: According to benji, stats can tell the complete story, but what about factors that empirical formulas and math can't put into effect (atleast that I feel they can't), like the level of competition and the like.

Just to bring up some things like your quick Jordan and Iverson jumpshooting percentage thing. Sure the percentage tells how Jordan had a higher percentage than Iverson, but how can you tell that Jordan is the better jumpshooter? I mean there's things like difficulty of shots that are being taken that would be taken into account into how often a player can get baskets. Iverson is known to be taking ill-advised shots, and Jordan may take his number of ill-advised shots too, but most likely not to Iverson's amount. One can argue that this partially shows how Jordan was better at creating space for himself (bad example) so that he can GET those better looks, but you wouldn't actually know that until you had a chance to WATCH THEM PLAY, as I don't think stats can tell you how well a player can create space for themselves. Also add into the fact they played in a different era and had a difference in the types of calls players would get (this sort of makes what I previously said as a moot point, as Iverson plays in a time where handchecks are not allowed and in Jordan's time, it was allowed, making defenses more physical). Now I'm not arguing the Iverson is the better shooter compared to Jordan, but just using it as an example.

I probably didnt make sense or self-owned myself ,or gonna get owned by benji or someone else, but yeah, just my $0.02.

[---]

Here are my rankings:

1. Tim Duncan

Gone are his days of 25/13/4, but he is still the premiere big man, and in my opinion premiere player in the league today. Coming of his fourth NBA championship, Duncan is a complete winner. Today he will provide you with 20+ points each night, while playing DPOY defence, rebounding almost as well as anyone in the league and get his teammates involved like very few big men can. As a big, the only thing he lacks is the ability to knock down freethrows at a high percentage. He may not be the flashiest player or the biggest stat stuffer, but he can dominate every player in the league both offensively and defensively.

2. Kobe Bryant

Kobe is the the most prolific offensive player in the league today. He has the ability to finish with the best of them, nail his freethrows at a high clip, knock down the three, post up smaller players and score from midrange. He is an athletic freak, and is almost always faster, quicker or stronger than his defender. Kobe also provides on the defensive end as one of the best defensive shooting gaurds in the league. He has the ability to get hsi teammates involved, especially with all the defensive pressure focused on him, but hasn't done that alot lately with such a poor supporting cast. With three NBA championships and highest scoring averages since Michael Jordan, Kobe is number 2 on my list.

3. Kevin Garnett

KG is elite on both sides of the ball. He is a great scorer, and uses his incredible versatility at 7 feet to score on any defender you put on him. He has the size of a center and can switch between the skillset of a power forward and small forward at any moment, taking his man of the dribble, pulling up for a long two or using his elite footwork in the post - he can truly do it all. He can handle the ball as well as anyone his size in NBA history, and is on par with Duncan in terms of getting his teammates involved in the flow of the offence. Defensively he is among the very best the league, and his versatility comes into action once again as he can gaurd multiple positions. He is also an elite rebounder, consistantly posting incredible rebounding numbers - often leading the league.

4. LeBron James

At the age of 21, LeBron posted a season where he basically averaged 31, 7 and 7. He continues to be one of the very best scorers in the league despite having a shaky outside shot and freethrow. With rumors of a much improved outside shot, even less defenders will be able to stop him. Physically, he's all you can ask for. At 6'8", he is incredibly strong and quick, and is arguably the most athletic player in the game today. Along with that athleticism comes his court vision, which very few point gaurds in the league can match - which is amazing considering LeBron's primary position is small forward. Defensively, he is lacking, but he has all the tools to become a very good defender and I believe he is at least average defensively today. If he was to reach Bryant's level defensively, one could argue he is a better player than Kobe. He rebounds very well for a small forward, and as with Garnett, his versatility makes him a headache for opposing teams. Fresh off a finals appearance at the age of 22, he's only going to get better.

5. Dwyane Wade

Wade put on a Jordan-esque performance during the 2006 NBA Finals, earning MVP honors. He is unmatched in his ability to get the basket. Physically, he is either too strong or too quick (usually the latter) for anyone that is trying to stop him. His court vision and passing skill is matched by only a player or two at the shooting gaurd position, and because of this he has the ability to play the point gaurd very effectively. Defensively he tends to gamble and take risks, but despite this he is still a very solid defender. The only thing stpping Wade from completely dominating offensively is a jumpshot. His jumpshot is not at all impressive from long range. He has the ability to pull up from midrange and hit the jumper, but by that point it is probably easier to continue onto the hoop where he can use his athleticism to finish in the toughest of situation. Dwyane delivers when it matter most, and there is very little you can ask for him to improve upon.

6. Yao Ming

Standing at 7'6", Yao is a terror down low without taking into account his skill level. Yao is the best center in the game today, and his footwork, court vision, passing and scoring ability downlow are unmatched among the centers in the league today. Defensively, he does his job and does it well. Though more could be asked of him with his size and mobility, Yao does do a good job on the boards and he is virtually impossible to get by once he boxes his man out. His ballhandling ability is amazing for a guy his size, and that coupled with his mobility and footwork makes him incredibly hard to stop downlow if he want's to score. He isn't a blackhole either, as he is more than willing to give the ball up and possesses court vision few other bigs do. He also has another important skill many other big men don't - the ability to knock down freethrows.

7. Steve Nash

Steve Nash is an offensive god. Nash shot 53% from the field this season past season - good for the top spot among anyone not playing the PF or C position, which is remarkable considering Nash isn't taking almost all of his shots from within 7 feet of the basket. He also shot over 45% from three and roughly 90% from the line - good for 2nd and 5th in the league respectively. He put up close to 19 points a game this season, all while solidifying his spot as the leagues best playmaker, setting his teammates up with perfect passes despite the toughest of difficulty. Nash, like his former teammate Dirk, leaves alot to be desired defensively, however I don't feel his defensive inability is bad enough to keep him out of the top ten.

8. Dirk Nowitzki

Despite the fact that Dirk had a terrible playoff series against the cindarella Golden State Warriors, he is still a top ten player in this league. His shooting ability is unmatched against anyone his size - or basically the entire NBA for that matter - and he uses his small forward like skills to cause matchup problems offensively. He isn't lazy on the boards - grabbing 9 per contest - and isn't just a jumpshooter either, as he does have some good post moves he can and will use. Dirk is one of the very few players his size that are able to creat their own shots, which is very worrying for the opposition considering his deadly shooting touch. He creates the space he wants with his ballhandling and mobility - both of which are extremely impressive for a 7 footer. Defensively, he leaves alot to be desired, but I feel he is a little better than most give him credit for. I feel that his defensive inability comes from him not laterally quick enough gaurd most small forwards, and not strong enough to gaurd most big men.

9. Tracy McGrady

T-Mac joins teammate Yao in the top ten due to his incredible all round ability. Tracy played the role of a point forward, a la Scottie Pippen this year, and played that role very well. Despite the ability to be the leagues most prolific scorer on any given day, Tracy took a step back and focused more on getting his teammates involved. He posted great all round numbers of roughly 25, 5 and 7 as his Houston Rockets won 52 games. He is a terror offensively, as with his athleticism at 6'8" he can do almost anything he wants - especially with ballhandling ability and strong jumpshot. Defensively, Tracy is very solid, putting his physical attributes to work. He will block shots and rack up steals with his quickness and long arms, and could really be a terror defensively if he put his mind to it. He is also a good rebounder, and pulled down 8 a game during his earlier days which is excellent for a gaurd/forward.

10. Allen Iverson

AI is still one of the leagues very best players at age 32. When he was finally paired with a big time scorer in Carmelo Anthony to take pressure off of him, Iverson responded with his best FG% in almost a decade as he shot over 45% from the field. He also shot almost 35$ from three in his first season as a Nugget. Iverson is the best one on one player in the league, combining arguably the leagues quickest first step (and baseline to baseline speed) with arguably the leagues best ballhandling ability. AI is one of the most prolific scorers of the past decade, but he's not only a great scorer. He also get's his teammates involved in the game - especially now that he has a much better supporting cast - and has terrific court vision and passing ability. His defence isn't great - he gambles alot and his size hurts him - but he does play with alot of heart and try's his best on that end of the court rather than stand around. He also is a poor rebounder, but this is too be expected as he leaks out for the fast break when the ball is released. If Allen was 6'6", he could be the best player in the league.

Missed the cut: Carmelo Anthony, Elton Brand, Paul Pierce, Gilbert Arenas, Jason Kidd

[feedtheworld]

here are my top 10:

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Lebron James
5. Jason Kidd
6. Steve Nash
7. Yao
8. Tracy Mcgrady
9. Dirk
10. Arenas

maybe forgetting somebody

[benji]

like the level of competition and the like.

How could you not measure the level of competition?

Sure the percentage tells how Jordan had a higher percentage than Iverson, but how can you tell that Jordan is the better jumpshooter? I mean there's things like difficulty of shots that are being taken that would be taken into account into how often a player can get baskets. Iverson is known to be taking ill-advised shots, and Jordan may take his number of ill-advised shots too, but most likely not to Iverson's amount.

I would consider someone who makes less mistakes, like taking ill-advised shots, to be better than someone than who does make more of those mistakes. Do you want someone who makes 50% or someone who makes 45%, regardless of how many ill advised shots?

One can argue that this partially shows how Jordan was better at creating space for himself (bad example) so that he can GET those better looks, but you wouldn't actually know that until you had a chance to WATCH THEM PLAY, as I don't think stats can tell you how well a player can create space for themselves.

But you could easily, you could measure how often and far they get away from their man before shooting. You are measuring it by watching them anyway, you are just not recording it into a table and storing each individual data point for future recall.

There is nothing wrong with using hard data and logic, despite it's stigma.

[LakersRule24]

No(Garnett)

He will win MVP this year.

That might be a stretch. It will be even harder because of how loaded the starting lineup is.

What changed your opinion of Wade so much in 3 years? If he's improved then (which he has), how could your feelings on him gone to the polar opposite? I'm not a Wade nut, but i recognize a special talent when I see one, and this talent places him in the top 5 RIGHT NOW.

Not counting previous exploits, going on talent and performance level RIGHT NOW, how can he not make that list?

Nash won MVP with a LOADED starting lineup. He had elite shooters in Richardson and Johnson, he had an elite big man in Stoudemire, he had one of the most versatile players in the league in Marion, and he had a very improving Barbosa. That team could've possibly been better than the Celtics team right now.

Everyone started getting on Wade's nuts since the 04-05 season, some were already calling him better than Kobe at the time. Then in the 05-06 season, there was the NBA Finals where the zebras handed him the trophy. Then about half the people were calling him better than Kobe and the media was so desperate in trying to paint him as the best player in the league(giving him the best player award in the ESPY's, giving him SI Sportsman of the year, calling him humble, etc). It continued in the 06-07 season, even though he was injured half the entire year. Yet at the same time, they never show the other side(him getting exposed in the 06 summer games, him getting swept, etc). That is how my opinion on him can change so much.

[---]

NBA Finals where the zebras handed him the trophy

He did put on one hell of a performance, I don't think you can just say the officials handed him the trophy.It was some of the worst officiating I've ever seen, but not all of it involved Wade. Without those ticky tack fouls, missed travel/carry calls, etc. Dwyane still would of had a very memorable performance IMO.

him getting exposed in the 06 summer games

If he was "exposed" then, why don't NBA teams take note and do what those international teams were doing to stop him? If they are it obviously isn't working, as he continues to dominate.

best player award in the ESPY's, giving him SI Sportsman of the year,

If that was 2006, I'd say he deserved it with his performance in the Finals. Just remember, the media finds way's to congratulate guys that go so far. Dwyane won a title, and while Kobe was the better player, there was nothing new on him. Just the same old Kobe, knocked out in the first round. Not exciting for the media.

him getting swept

You mean the Heat getting swept. By the way the Bulls are a great team and are probably the second best team in the East right now. Miami was plauged with injuries (Wade coming off one and still hurting during the series), and Wade did quite well despite his injury problems - averaging 24/5/6 for the series. Miami as a team wasn't clicking. It wasn't Wade who lost it for them singlehandedly, it wasn't him that got swept. If anything he kept the series more competitive than it could of been.