Kobe 4 straight 50 point games: 65, 50, 60, and 50

And Marion, who was absolutely lost without a real PG to get him the rock once upon a time.

What on Earth? Shawn Marion's been averaging no less than 17ppg since his sophmore season. You have no idea.

And guys like Q-Rich, Tim Thomas and Boris Diaw who 'wow' folk with a pedestrian 13 ppg .. interesting.

Considering all three of those were never more than 3rd or 4th options and since I'm the only one bothering to present any facts maybe you can do me a favour and tell me how many NBA teams have 4th options putting up "pedestrian" 13ppg's... although you did know Boris Diaw is the only one of those three who actually averaged 13ppg for the Suns.

I'm guessing it's the team with the worse record, due to the SG that shoots too much ..

Yeah you're right, there is no differential in talent at all. The Lakers are equal to the Suns so obviously it's Kobe's excessive shooting causing them to have a worse record.

You score 20 on 30 shots, and lose to teams like Memphis. Then eventually in the playoffs to talented teams.

He averages 22 shots per game genius, you also seem to be basing things entirely off 1 game against Memphis. Was it Kobe's fault or do you think it was a bit of a stretch to ask Lamar Odom (who is supposed to be the 2nd best player on the team) to shoot better than 1-7 in a game that was lost by 2 points?

Some extra reading for you...

Carmelo Anthony - 22.9
Kobe Bryant - 22.0
Gilbert Arenas - 21.2
Ray Allen - 21.0
LeBron James - 20.8
Allen Iverson - 20.7
Tracy McGrady - 20.6
Joe Johnson - 20.0

So Kobe takes the 2nd most shots in the NBA, the difference between the #2 (which is Kobe) and the #8 is 2 shots per game, which can be broken down to 1 shot per 24 minutes of basketball.

Since we're talking about comical shooting percentages, lets see how Kobe ranks amongst the top 8 shot takers in the league...

Carmelo - 47.4
Kobe - 46.3
Gilbert - 42.0
Ray - 43.8
LeBron - 47.8
Iverson - 44.0
McGrady - 43.3
Johnson - 47.1

Kobe ranks 4th out of 8 players and takes the 2nd most shots.

I'm guessing it's the team with the worse record, due to the SG that shoots too much .. because well .. that's what happens when you don't score 50-60 every night on 30 shots. You score 20 on 30 shots, and lose to teams like Memphis. Then eventually in the playoffs to talented teams.

Pheonix lost to Philly twice this season. I think its becuase of a little point guard that dribbles too much and doesn't play defense.

Kobe Bryant does his job and does it better than any other SG in NBA history apart from Michael Jordan.

I was going to leave this alone, since it's kind of obvious that it's comical, but ..

.. you do realize that Bryant has led a team no where and that Allen Iverson has taken one to the Finals .. right?

What exactly is Kobe's job, other than to score points, which guys like T-Mac, VC and AI have been doing for years?

He hasn't won anything without Shaquille O'Neal, whom during his prime .. lol you could of stuck anybody at SG and the Lakers were still dominating.

What exactly do you specialise in? Stupid comments and horribly misinformed opinions seems to be the front runner but I would like to know.

He hasn't won anything without Shaquille O'Neal, whom during his prime .. lol you could of stuck anybody at SG and the Lakers were still dominating.

I'm sorry, i dislike Kobe as much as the next guy, but what exactly did Shaq win before Kobe arrived and hit his strides?

The Lakers wouldnt have won with just any shooting guard paired with the big guy.

It's ridiculous to suggest that Kobe had nothing to do with it.

Won anything without Shaq? Well that takes away all his merits I suppose, three rings mean nothing.

Anyhoo, you do remember AI played 10 years for Philliy, in the Eastern Conference. The difference between T-Mac and VC is that Kobe actually can play All-NBA defense, and wins games consistently. Why aren't we having this discussion about T-Mac or VC then? I don't think I even have to answer that.

The whole shaq arguement can be countered by saying "what has Jordan won without pippen?"

As for Tmac, he should be in the MVP discussion this season.

What on Earth? Shawn Marion's been averaging no less than 17ppg since his sophmore season. You have no idea.

Alright, Captain 15,000 posts. Let's pretend Shawn Marion was not absolutely useless and all statistics before Steve Nash made an appearance, alright? Does the fact that Phoenix won nothing without Steve Nash mean anything to you? Does the fact that Steve Nash and Phoenix have been threats to land in the Finals each year mean anything to you?

You're clever in passing it off like Ainge assembled a team of under the radar All-Stars or something. Joe Johnson was definately one of them, but Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw and Q-Rich?

Considering all three of those were never more than 3rd or 4th options and since I'm the only one bothering to present any facts maybe you can do me a favour and tell me how many NBA teams have 4th options putting up "pedestrian" 13ppg's... although you did know Boris Diaw is the only one of those three who actually averaged 13ppg for the Suns.

What do I have to do, go to NBA.com and bust out statistics for you? You get the point -- you don't seem that stupid so I'm trying my hardest not to treat you as such.

The guys I mentioned (Q-Rich, Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw) are journeymen for a reason. Because they only produce with certain players. Obviously Nash was one of them, which is why they all have put up their best numbers while with him.

This is Basketball 101.

Yeah you're right, there is no differential in talent at all. The Lakers are equal to the Suns so obviously it's Kobe's excessive shooting causing them to have a worse record.

Well let's look at it this way. Somebody like Steve Nash actually gives his teammates an opportunity to do something.

You're aware that somebody like Kobe does the exact opposite, right?

So how do you and I know that someone like Luke Walton isn't capable of dumping in 17 ppg with some solid minutes and touches?

The thing you don't even take into consideration (or are claiming evolved, conveniently enough, when Nash came along -- it had nothing to do with the ease of which he puts players around him in position to make baskets) is that guys such as Amare and Marion, whom I'm certain you think are leagues above anything the Lakers have, were nothing but lost freaks of nature jumping around the Phoenix gym until the Canadian came along.

There is a major gap in talent between the Lakers and the Suns. It's called Steve Nash, who makes proven losers like Amare/Marion into winners heading deep into the playoffs each year.

And no, I don't want to hear that "developed" bullshit. The two clowns have dunked since they came into the NBA, and they're still dunking now. There isn't much to dunking -- trust me. I do the shit at the playground enough myself and happen to appreciate when someone that can handle the rock can get it to me when I'm under the hoop instead of me doing it by myself from the perimeter.

He averages 22 shots per game genius, you also seem to be basing things entirely off 1 game against Memphis. Was it Kobe's fault or do you think it was a bit of a stretch to ask Lamar Odom (who is supposed to be the 2nd best player on the team) to shoot better than 1-7 in a game that was lost by 2 points?

Maybe Odom forgot what the hell the ball looked like from the previous string of 30 shot evenings?

And are you stupid enough to think I'm basing this on one game? How about last year's playoffs when that 2nd best player dumped in 20 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg and a bpg on 50% from the field? Where the hell was Kobe? Sitting down at the end of game 7? Turning the ball over 5 times a game in the mean time?

Some extra reading for you...

Carmelo Anthony - 22.9
Kobe Bryant - 22.0
Gilbert Arenas - 21.2
Ray Allen - 21.0
LeBron James - 20.8
Allen Iverson - 20.7
Tracy McGrady - 20.6
Joe Johnson - 20.0

So Kobe takes the 2nd most shots in the NBA, the difference between the #2 (which is Kobe) and the #8 is 2 shots per game, which can be broken down to 1 shot per 24 minutes of basketball.

Since we're talking about comical shooting percentages, lets see how Kobe ranks amongst the top 8 shot takers in the league...

Carmelo - 47.4
Kobe - 46.3
Gilbert - 42.0
Ray - 43.8
LeBron - 47.8
Iverson - 44.0
McGrady - 43.3
Johnson - 47.1

Kobe ranks 4th out of 8 players and takes the 2nd most shots.

Hey, congratulations! You managed to post the top 8 ballhogs in the NBA! It's pretty much common knowledge at this point that every one of those guys isn't even remotely close to Nash or someone like Jeff Hornacek's shooting efficiency, so what exactly is your point? That Bryant shoots better than the other ballhogs around the NBA? Is this supposed to impress me?

Dude did you start watching basketball this year, or did you start watching it back when I did, when guys like Mullin, Hornacek and Jordan drained 50% of their jumpers on an off night and wrapped up the season above 50% like most Centers?

This list is proof that shooting in the NBA is a joke anymore.

LOL

What exactly do you specialise in? Stupid comments and horribly misinformed opinions seems to be the front runner but I would like to know.

What exactly do you specialize in?

Digging up meaningless statistics about the NBA's finest ballhogs and where Kobe Bryant fits in amongst them?

Show me something, kapadre.

You've got 15,000 posts on this forum and I'm not the least bit impressed so far.

He hasn't won anything without Shaquille O'Neal, whom during his prime .. lol you could of stuck anybody at SG and the Lakers were still dominating.

I'm sorry, i dislike Kobe as much as the next guy, but what exactly did Shaq win before Kobe arrived and hit his strides?

The Lakers wouldnt have won with just any shooting guard paired with the big guy.

It's ridiculous to suggest that Kobe had nothing to do with it.

You are aware that Shaquille O'Neal was essentially healthy and unstoppable during those three championship years, right?

That basically we were witnessing the same type of physics (sheer size, athletic ability) that led Wilt to do what he did back in the day?

Shaquille O'Neal was the most dominant player in the NBA during the Lakers trio of Championship runs. You could of stuck T-Mac, VC or AI at the perimeter to pour in points outside of the paint and they'd of won all the same.

I also remember guys like Fisher and Horry coming through big as well.

Won anything without Shaq? Well that takes away all his merits I suppose, three rings mean nothing.

Anyhoo, you do remember AI played 10 years for Philliy, in the Eastern Conference. The difference between T-Mac and VC is that Kobe actually can play All-NBA defense, and wins games consistently. Why aren't we having this discussion about T-Mac or VC then? I don't think I even have to answer that.

I don't even know why we're having this discussion about Bryant. He's no different from T-Mac and VC in that he's won as much as they have in this league when you take away his support role on the Championship Lakers teams.

All any of them have done is put up numbers.

Somebody already mentioned this before -- we should be having this conversation when Kobe has dragged the Lakers to the finals or a championship.

Until then he's got absolutely nothing on Allen Iverson, who DID drag a team on his back to the Finals.

The whole shaq arguement can be countered by saying "what has Jordan won without pippen?"

There's a difference. It's a matter of understanding roles.

The Lakers were Shaq's team. Shaq was the leader. He was the most dominant player.

Jordan had it the same with the Bulls. He was the most dominant player in the NBA at the time. He was without a doubt the leader.

Both Pippen and Bryant played the support roles. Not nearly as minimal as guys like Fisher, Paxson, Kerr, Grant and so forth .. they obviously played a bigger role .. but they were not the leaders of the team.

Allen Iverson was a leader and a half the year he dragged the Sixers to the Finals.

This is precisely what Kobe Bryant is not, and what he's struggled to do.

A leader knows when to defer to his teammates, or when to take smart shots and so forth. (Um, Steve Nash rings a bell) Or when to simply take over.

Bryant has been awful at this for years now, and it started back when he and Shaq split due to an inability to share the ball, and Kobe wanting the Lakers for himself .. to finally get out from Shaq's shadow.

I'm waiting for him to impress me .. really, I am. But 50 points in four games and first round exits out of the playoffs is not going to do it. Nor is that going to lure me into thinking he's the second best SG of all time when Allen Iverson himself has taken a team to the Finals on his back -- something Kobe has yet to do and doesn't look likely this year.

Until then, I discard him amongst the VCs, T-Macs, J-Rich's and other black hole guards around the NBA. Just another SG that jacks up a million shots a night to try getting his 30 a game.

Last edited by ThaSpecialist on Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

did you really need 5 consecutive posts?

Last edited by Isaiah on Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alright, Captain 15,000 posts.

Wtf?

Let's pretend Shawn Marion was not absolutely useless

We don't have to pretend, he wasn't useless.

Does the fact that Phoenix won nothing without Steve Nash mean anything to you?

What have they won with Nash? I don't recall any Suns championship teams lately...

You're clever in passing it off like Ainge assembled a team of under the radar All-Stars or something. Joe Johnson was definately one of them, but Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw and Q-Rich?

I didn't call Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw or Q-RIch all stars, or all stars in the making. You are acting like they're all scrubs who'd struggle to make any other team except for the amazingly depleted Phoenix side who only had 2 all stars on their roster that season.

The guys I mentioned (Q-Rich, Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw) are journeymen for a reason. Because they only produce with certain players. Obviously Nash was one of them, which is why they all have put up their best numbers while with him.

How is Boris Diaw a journeyman? He's played for 2 teams, which makes Nash a journeyman too by your reasoning. They don't obviously produce with certain players, that's one of the dumbest things you've said and really that says alot.

Well let's look at it this way. Somebody like Steve Nash actually gives his teammates an opportunity to do something.

You're aware that somebody like Kobe does the exact opposite, right?

You mean a pass-first PG who's job is to distribute the ball and put his teammates in a better position to score actually does it???? And Kobe who's job is to score in bunches and carry his reasonably mediocre teammates who have proven they can't carry the offensive load without him, doesn't do that? Well I'm shocked.

So how do you and I know that someone like Luke Walton isn't capable of dumping in 17 ppg with some solid minutes and touches?

Wait, Kobe is the reason he's not getting solid minutes? Luke Walton could probably put up 17ppg on a team... that team would struggle to win 15 games and would end up with a top 3 pick, but hey, he's score 17ppg.

The thing you don't even take into consideration (or are claiming evolved, conveniently enough, when Nash came along -- it had nothing to do with the ease of which he puts players around him in position to make baskets) is that guys such as Amare and Marion, whom I'm certain you think are leagues above anything the Lakers have, were nothing but lost freaks of nature jumping around the Phoenix gym until the Canadian came along.

Oh my fucking God, you are a complete and utter idiot.

There is a major gap in talent between the Lakers and the Suns. It's called Steve Nash, who makes proven losers like Amare/Marion into winners heading deep into the playoffs each year.

Amare and Marion are proven losers? What the hell? The difference in talent between the Lakers and Suns Einstein is that the Suns have better players

And no, I don't want to hear that "developed" bullshit. The two clowns have dunked since they came into the NBA, and they're still dunking now.

Oh man... developed bullshit? So players don't get better over time, they just get better when Steve Nash is on their team. Thanks, that's one lesson they must have left out of Basketball 101.

There isn't much to dunking -- trust me. I do the shit at the playground enough myself and happen to appreciate when someone that can handle the rock can get it to me when I'm under the hoop instead of me doing it by myself from the perimeter.

That's fantastic. Care level = 0, please spare your life story thank you.

Maybe Odom forgot what the hell the ball looked like from the previous string of 30 shot evenings?

Yes, that's exactly what happened

Hey, congratulations! You managed to post the top 8 ballhogs in the NBA! It's pretty much common knowledge at this point that every one of those guys isn't even remotely close to Nash or someone like Jeff Hornacek's shooting efficiency, so what exactly is your point?

JEFF HORNACEK!?!??? LMAO! Do you understand the game whatsoever? Steve Nash isn't a volume scorer, it isn't his job for fuck sakes which is why he isn't in that list. Every one of those players is the #1 scoring option on their team (except Iverson now I guess) and is required to take the most amount of shots, that's the whole bloody point.

Dude did you start watching basketball this year, or did you start watching it back when I did, when guys like Mullin, Hornacek and Jordan drained 50% of their jumpers on an off night and wrapped up the season above 50% like most Centers?

Lol yeah they drained 50% of jumpers on an off night. Jeff Hornacek and Chris Mullin? Why are you mentioning them? They were never superstars on the same level as Nash and Kobe, Jeff Hornacek was barely more than the 3rd option on his team.

Those three guys must have had alot of off nights, since only Mullin averaged 50%+ for his career, and only barely scraped it in at .509. But lets not let facts stand in the way of your intense basketball knowledge that dates back to the mid 90's

LOL.

Edit:

This list is proof that shooting in the NBA is a joke anymore.

Huh?

I don't understand how Amare, Marion. JJ and Marbury were the laughing stock of the NBA when, before Nash, they had a record of 44-38, had improved imensely from the season before and pushed the Spurs (the eventual champions) to 6 games in the first round of the playoffs in Amare's first year......

Won anything without Shaq? Well that takes away all his merits I suppose, three rings mean nothing.

Anyhoo, you do remember AI played 10 years for Philliy, in the Eastern Conference. The difference between T-Mac and VC is that Kobe actually can play All-NBA defense, and wins games consistently. Why aren't we having this discussion about T-Mac or VC then? I don't think I even have to answer that.

I don't even know why we're having this discussion about Bryant. He's no different from T-Mac and VC in that he's won as much as they have in this league when you take away his support role on the Championship Lakers teams.

All any of them have done is put up numbers.

Somebody already mentioned this before -- we should be having this conversation when Kobe has dragged the Lakers to the finals or a championship.

Until then he's got absolutely nothing on Allen Iverson, who DID drag a team on his back to the Finals.

Well since you happen to have an obsession with Nash, you do realize he basically is doing the same thing point guards have done for 50 years now. Plus the fact his being surrounded by two all-stars and solid role players.

T-Mac wouldn't be shit without Yao, we've seen that.

VC? He has that low self-esteem problem, he needs a leader on the team.

With your logic we can't discuss anyone who hasn't been in the finals, so let's get Nash, VC, T-Mac out of this topic.

I do agree on the point with Allen Iverson, but everything was clicking for them then, and the East wasn't particulary strong back then. It was an amazing feat though.

We don't have to pretend, he wasn't useless.

Then what was the problem? Why couldn't they win with just Marion and Amare, the All-Stars? Both were putting up 20 ppg and 9 rpg, and they missed the playoffs pretty badly.

What have they won with Nash? I don't recall any Suns championship teams lately...

Okay, I get it. Laughing stock to contender means .. NOTHING when we're talking about Nash, huh? I'm sure if it was Kobe pulling a team out of the hole you'd be using that to solidify his spot in the Hall of Fame.

I didn't call Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw or Q-RIch all stars, or all stars in the making. You are acting like they're all scrubs who'd struggle to make any other team except for the amazingly depleted Phoenix side who only had 2 all stars on their roster that season.

How is Boris Diaw a journeyman? He's played for 2 teams, which makes Nash a journeyman too by your reasoning. They don't obviously produce with certain players, that's one of the dumbest things you've said and really that says alot.

LOL Hilarious. What part of: "Only produce with certain players" don't you understand? YES Steve Nash excells in the Phoenix system! HE IS THE SYSTEM! The right players are around him! They have the right abilities! Jump shooters, guys that run the floor on the break! Guys that know how to move! It starts with Nash being able to get them the ball.

Dude it's not rocket science to figure out that they all played well together. You're talking about break-out years, guys developing and sh!t. It's about chemistry and doing shit on the court that your players are capable of doing. I don't think guys like Q-Rich and Tim Thomas are still developing. LOL Diaw is developing? Or you mean Ainge put him to use and out on the floor and let him rack up the lay-ups with Nash on the break? Raja Bell? Is he developing or is he good in the system?

You understand there are different systems in basketball, right? Like ones with a pass first point guard (this is rare in the NBA) and ones without a point guard? (Lakers)

Good, so maybe then we can move on to how the best player on the team for the Lakers (that'd be Kobe) should really be the one looking to get everyone involved, especially with all those double teams he faces nightly? You're familiar with Lebron's apg numbers? Allen Iverson's before he ran the point (back when Snow lead the team in assists) ? Pippen's? Jordan's? Guys who knew when to give up the ball when there was no point guard available? Guys not named Steve Nash that gave up the ball and made their teammates around them better?

You mean a pass-first PG who's job is to distribute the ball and put his teammates in a better position to score actually does it???? And Kobe who's job is to score in bunches and carry his reasonably mediocre teammates who have proven they can't carry the offensive load without him, doesn't do that? Well I'm shocked.

Of course you're shocked. You've yet to acknowledge what Allen Iverson was doing in the Finals once upon a time after playing both the Nash and Bryant role in the same season.

Furthermore, what part of: "Ballhog = Don't take a bad shot, give up the rock for the assist" am I not being clear about? I'm not saying Kobe should be coming up with 8 dimes a game. I'm saying give up the fucking rock, stop taking so many bad shots, and maybe you'll win a few more games.

It was taking bad shots that blew the entire Lakers Dynasty out of the water, and Shaq calling the dumbass out on it. You'd think he learned by now. I don't see how we're supposed to be comparing this guy to the likes of Jordan when his APG numbers are worse than people like Lebron and Pippen and he's had a serious history with sharing the ball.

Wait, Kobe is the reason he's not getting solid minutes? Luke Walton could probably put up 17ppg on a team... that team would struggle to win 15 games and would end up with a top 3 pick, but hey, he's score 17ppg.

LOL .. nice speculation. Maybe you're more familiar with what's going on in Philly as we speak? Notice how AI moved out, free'd up about 25 shots a game and now people like Dalembert and Iguodala are showing up to play? What was I thinking .. this is Basketball 101!

Oh my fucking God, you are a complete and utter idiot.

Yes, this is how we debate! We throw around childish insults! What more should I expect from a dude with 15,000 posts on a forum?! LOL!! I'm sure you're a PRO at this!

Amare and Marion are proven losers? What the hell? The difference in talent between the Lakers and Suns Einstein is that the Suns have better players

How do you know this? Who on the Lakers has gotten the opportunity to shoot the ball and showcase their ability aside from Bryant?

BACK TO THE REALITY OF ANDRE IGUODALA RECENTLY FREED OF PLAYING BEHIND AI AND LOOKING RATHER PRODUCTIVE!

Oh man... developed bullshit? So players don't get better over time, they just get better when Steve Nash is on their team. Thanks, that's one lesson they must have left out of Basketball 101.

Yeah, you know, guys like Tim Thomas and Q-Rich? What'd they do, break out a year in Phoenix before bailing?

Let me look like you for a second:

"Hey, Nash had absolutely no impact on Marion and Amare when he came to the Suns in 04-05. In fact in 03-04 Marion and Amare put up the same stats (20 ppg, 9 rpg) as they did in 04-05 yet they somehow MISSED the playoffs and did not win 62 games by themselves!

That's fantastic. Care level = 0, please spare your life story thank you.

Wow, congratulations on failing to grasp that I was giving you a real life example seeing as how you're currently speaking as if you're unfamiliar with the texture of a basketball, having never touched one before.

You're not making much of a case here, man. I'm trying to be simple, and approaching the crayola level shortly.

JEFF HORNACEK!?!??? LMAO! Do you understand the game whatsoever? Steve Nash isn't a volume scorer, it isn't his job for fuck sakes which is why he isn't in that list. Every one of those players is the #1 scoring option on their team (except Iverson now I guess) and is required to take the most amount of shots, that's the whole bloody point.

LOL!! Bro, is there a written rule somewhere that says the top shooters on their teams must shoot like sh!t? Because I'm pretty sure guys like Larry Bird, Dwyane Wade and Michael Jordan all flirted with the 50% plenty of times as their teams top shooters?

That was my point to your useless list of today's NBA ballhogs that can't shoot. LOL @ Kobe ranking high amongst them, like that's something to brag about! Hooray, in today's NBA Kobe can't shoot, his % is a joke, and guess what? So are the other SGs around the NBA!

This has been known for a while now.

Lol yeah they drained 50% of jumpers on an off night. Jeff Hornacek and Chris Mullin? Why are you mentioning them? They were never superstars on the same level as Nash and Kobe, Jeff Hornacek was barely more than the 3rd option on his team.

lol .. man how can you dog on Chris Mullin. That's wrong. That guy could shoot.

This list is proof that shooting in the NBA is a joke anymore.

Huh?

You must of missed the other thread where I was stating my case against the NBA's shooting having taken a nose dive due to the surplus of kobe-esque SGs throwing up the ball 25 times a night.

I don't understand how Amare, Marion. JJ and Marbury were the laughing stock of the NBA when, before Nash, they had a record of 44-38, had improved imensely from the season before and pushed the Spurs (the eventual champions) to 6 games in the first round of the playoffs in Amare's first year......

You must of missed that 03-04 season. They collapsed pretty badly.

Was a case of the PG/SG that really could not shoot.

Well since you happen to have an obsession with Nash, you do realize he basically is doing the same thing point guards have done for 50 years now. Plus the fact his being surrounded by two all-stars and solid role players.

T-Mac wouldn't be shit without Yao, we've seen that.

VC? He has that low self-esteem problem, he needs a leader on the team.

With your logic we can't discuss anyone who hasn't been in the finals, so let's get Nash, VC, T-Mac out of this topic.

I do agree on the point with Allen Iverson, but everything was clicking for them then, and the East wasn't particulary strong back then. It was an amazing feat though.

Really .. though .. Nash (and Kidd) are rare anymore. They are point guards that pass the ball first. I just appreciate what they do.

I like that Nash was still able to get Phoenix to the playoffs without Amare last year .. playing in the West obviously.

Believe me bro, I want to put Kobe up there on the tree but until he's done something other than put up stats like the T-Macs and VCs, he's not getting above Allen Iverson or even Clyde Drexler .. both of whom led their teams deep into the playoffs as leaders.

My argument is that he must do it as a leader like Jordan and AI did.

I don't want to hear about the Lakers and Shaq. He has rings with them, and he's without a doubt in the Hall of Fame for that.

But I saw something more impressive when a 6' tall scoring guard, who actually gave up the rock a lot, dragged a garbage team into the finals.

.. Kobe really disappointed me last year with that Game 7 shit.

You're clever in passing it off like Ainge assembled a team of under the radar All-Stars or something. Joe Johnson was definately one of them, but Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw and Q-Rich?

Dude it's not rocket science to figure out that they all played well together. You're talking about break-out years, guys developing and sh!t. It's about chemistry and doing shit on the court that your players are capable of doing. I don't think guys like Q-Rich and Tim Thomas are still developing. LOL Diaw is developing? Or you mean Ainge put him to use and out on the floor and let him rack up the lay-ups with Nash on the break? Raja Bell? Is he developing or is he good in the system?

what year is this? 1998? last time I checked, Ainge ran the Suns into the gutter, or damn near close to it.

my head hurts from all this stupidity

what year is this? 1998? last time I checked, Ainge ran the Suns into the gutter, or damn near close to it.

lol .. I meant Antoni or whatever his name is

I don't follow the coaching staffs or the names .. Phil Jackson is as deep as I get. The rest I could careless about.

In fact I keep having to bring up AI and I hate that guy .. lol

Then what was the problem? Why couldn't they win with just Marion and Amare, the All-Stars? Both were putting up 20 ppg and 9 rpg, and they missed the playoffs pretty badly.

Well Amare only played 55 games, Marbury only played 34. In fact, the only players on that entire team to play more than 70 games were Marion, Barbosa and Casey Jacobsen.

Okay, I get it. Laughing stock to contender means .. NOTHING when we're talking about Nash, huh? I'm sure if it was Kobe pulling a team out of the hole you'd be using that to solidify his spot in the Hall of Fame.

You asked if the fact that Phoenix won nothing without Nash meant anything to you, the fact remains they haven't won anything WITH Nash either so your point is invalid.

LOL Hilarious. What part of: "Only produce with certain players" don't you understand? YES Steve Nash excells in the Phoenix system! HE IS THE SYSTEM! The right players are around him! They have the right abilities! Jump shooters, guys that run the floor on the break! Guys that know how to move! It starts with Nash being able to get them the ball.

... you say "only produce with certain players" then go and explain how they produce within the system... so it is the system or is it the player? You make no sense.

Dude it's not rocket science to figure out that they all played well together. You're talking about break-out years, guys developing and sh!t. It's about chemistry and doing shit on the court that your players are capable of doing. I don't think guys like Q-Rich and Tim Thomas are still developing.

But I didn't say they developed. I said Johnson, Amare, Marion had developed... you can deny that all you want but then you would be a retard.

LOL Diaw is developing? Or you mean Ainge put him to use and out on the floor and let him rack up the lay-ups with Nash on the break?

No, I mean Diaw is developing. He was 23 years old and in his third season, do you think players just peak after their rookie years and wait for someone like Nash to make them better?

And what does Danny Ainge have to do with this? He's the director of basketball op's at the Celtics you dumbass.

Good, so maybe then we can move on to how the best player on the team for the Lakers (that'd be Kobe) should really be the one looking to get everyone involved, especially with all those double teams he faces nightly? You're familiar with Lebron's apg numbers? Allen Iverson's before he ran the point (back when Snow lead the team in assists) ? Pippen's? Jordan's? Guys who knew when to give up the ball when there was no point guard available? Guys not named Steve Nash that gave up the ball and made their teammates around them better?

You wanna talk about APG numbers? Stephon Marbury averages 8.1apg for his career, Steve Nash averages 7.0. I'm guessing that would make Marbury better at getting his teammates involved by your horrifically floored logic.

Of course you're shocked. You've yet to acknowledge what Allen Iverson was doing in the Finals once upon a time after playing both the Nash and Bryant role in the same season.

Wtf? I haven't acknowledged Allen Iverson because the discussion was about Kobe Bryant and the number of shots he's taken. For some reason still unbeknownst to me you dragged Steve Nash into the discussion, then Chris Mullin and Jeff Hornacek . You're yet to acknowledge that in 10 seasons Iverson only lead his team to the finals once, but hey, facts are stupid.

Furthermore, what part of: "Ballhog = Don't take a bad shot, give up the rock for the assist" am I not being clear about? I'm not saying Kobe should be coming up with 8 dimes a game. I'm saying give up the fucking rock, stop taking so many bad shots, and maybe you'll win a few more games.

And maybe you won't. Who are you to say what the other Lakers are capable of? Do you attend training and see them dominating until Kobe walks on the court and just destroys everything, God damn him. Damn him to hell for supressing the potential basketball greatness that is Luke Walton and Smush Parker.

It was taking bad shots that blew the entire Lakers Dynasty out of the water, and Shaq calling the dumbass out on it. You'd think he learned by now. I don't see how we're supposed to be comparing this guy to the likes of Jordan when his APG numbers are worse than people like Lebron and Pippen and he's had a serious history with sharing the ball.

Do you know what an assist is? You really don't seem to be grasping the concept. I'm sure Shaq would have been much happier playing with someone like Stephon Marbury who's APG numbers are impressive

LOL .. nice speculation. Maybe you're more familiar with what's going on in Philly as we speak? Notice how AI moved out, free'd up about 25 shots a game and now people like Dalembert and Iguodala are showing up to play? What was I thinking .. this is Basketball 101!

How did he free up 25 shots per game when his average is far lower? I wonder how Carmelo has managed to increase his scoring average playing with Iverson. Of course adding a top 10 PG in Andre Miller really had no bearing on any of this, because you know, the only thing stopping the Sixers from being successful was Allen Iverson.

Yes, this is how we debate! We throw around childish insults!

What more should I expect from a dude with 15,000 posts on a forum?!

Well you're clearly quite good at it yourself

How do you know this? Who on the Lakers has gotten the opportunity to shoot the ball and showcase their ability aside from Bryant?

Um... do you really want me to answer that?

Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Maurice Evans, Aaron McKie, Chris Mihm, Smush Parker, Vladimir Radmanovic, Shammond Williams... have all had that opportunity.

BACK TO THE REALITY OF ANDRE IGUODALA RECENTLY FREED OF PLAYING BEHIND AI AND LOOKING RATHER PRODUCTIVE!

Wtf does Iguodala have to do with any of this?

"Hey, Nash had absolutely no impact on Marion and Amare when he came to the Suns in 04-05. In fact in 03-04 Marion and Amare put up the same stats (20 ppg, 9 rpg) as they did in 04-05 yet they somehow MISSED the playoffs and did not win 62 games by themselves!

So you think taking Amare and Marbury, the two best players on the Suns in 03-04 (edit: typo), out of the line-up for the majority of the season along with various other injuries and whatever else had no impact on their result in the end? Or that adding a 20/10 PG who is unquestionably better than Marbury, along with a few other players and the natural progression of guys like Amare and Barbosa had no impact at all the next season?

Wow, congratulations on failing to grasp that I was giving you a real life example seeing as how you're currently speaking as if you're unfamiliar with the texture of a basketball, having never touched one before.

Lol yeah that's exactly what I'm doing. Or you're just completely and utterly clueless.

You're not making much of a case here, man. I'm trying to be simple, and approaching the crayola level shortly.

Lmao all the replies are people disagreeing with your points though, not mine, is everyone here wrong or are you just right?

LOL!! Bro, is there a written rule somewhere that says the top shooters on their teams must shoot like sh!t? Because I'm pretty sure guys like Larry Bird, Dwyane Wade and Michael Jordan all flirted with the 50% plenty of times as their teams top shooters?

Since when is shooting 46% compared to say 48% shooting like shit?

That was my point to your useless list of today's NBA ballhogs that can't shoot. LOL @ Kobe ranking high amongst them, like that's something to brag about! Hooray, in today's NBA Kobe can't shoot, his % is a joke, and guess what? So are the other SGs around the NBA!

We are in today's NBA you tool. Would you want me to start going on about how rubbish the 90's era of big men were because none of them could average Wilt's numbers? Your arguments are beyond ridiculous, if you look back over the careers of your hero's Michael Jordan and Jeff Hornacek (:lol:) they had seasons where they hovered around 47% (Hornacek did it like 3 times, and shot far less than Kobe... so if a guy taking less shots than Kobe who shoots 46% only makes 47% of them, where does that rank on your "LMAO NBA PLAYAZ ARE A JOKE LOL" scale?) and MJ had seasons where he shot 45%, 48%, 41%, 48%, 46%, 41% and 44%... you know research is your friend, stop talking out of your ass and please present some facts instead of your opinion which seems to have absolutely no basis whatsoever.

You must of missed the other thread where I was stating my case against the NBA's shooting having taken a nose dive due to the surplus of kobe-esque SGs throwing up the ball 25 times a night.

No, it was the fact that the sentence "shooting in the NBA is a joke anymore" makes zero sense. Maybe you should have gone to English 101 instead of Basketball 101.

I didn't read this whole thing because for some reason my eyes hurt. But ThaSpecialist, why are you talking about how ballhogging SG's such as Kobe hurt their team so much, then you go talking about how great Allen Iverson is? Allen Iverson is as big a ballhog as Kobe ever was/is.

I didn't read this whole thing because for some reason my eyes hurt. But ThaSpecialist, why are you talking about how ballhogging SG's such as Kobe hurt their team so much, then you go talking about how great Allen Iverson is? Allen Iverson is as big a ballhog as Kobe ever was/is.

with a run to the finals to show for it.

lol .. I didn't read anymore of it either, man.

this Jae dude clearly loses sleep over this shit. lol Kinda outta my league in terms of how much time I'd like to waste talking to a wall.