2018 PLAYOFFS: (2) Boston vs. (4) Cleveland

Kevin Love is out for game 7 due to the concussion protocol.

That takes away a great rebounder, and perimieter threat off the floor. Wish he was playing so Cleveland was at full strength, but this benefits the Celtics in my opinion.

On paper yes, but I do wonder if this puts pressure on them. With Love out for game 7, they don't have the injury excuse if they lose. At home against an also shorthanded Cavs team, they will actually be expected to win. We'll see if they lay an egg or finish the job.

i dont think this adds any additional pressure at all. its game 7 of the eastern conference finals and everyone has been saying they should have lost every step of the way. the pressure is 100% on lebron as if he loses to the team kyrie went to without kyrie (and hayward) its gonna be a hit on his legacy and that is all he has played for the last ten years.


maybe i will be under the most pressure to not break my tv when smart puts up another 3-4 stupid ass fucking 3 point shots

His 3 point percentage can be so deceiving sometimes. He will shoot like 2 for 5 in a game (good), but the 3 misses are absolutley horrible attempts (guarded or early in the a shot clock), and at the worst times.

Like the other night in Boston, those two contested threes at the beginning of the 4th was part of the reason CLE went on that run, overall he shot 50% from three that game... stats don't always tell the whole story.

Jaylen Brown has taken some questionable shots as well.

i will be fair and say that bad shots is expected from a young team but it dont make it any easier to watch

the pressure is 100% on lebron as if he loses to the team kyrie went to without kyrie (and hayward) its gonna be a hit on his legacy and that is all he has played for the last ten years.

Win or lose, his legacy will be fine, old man.
History will remember and celebrate his achievements, not his failures, as in the case with all legends like Kobe, Magic, Iverson, Jordan, etc.
Except may be for Wilt, probably the only legend with hate levels comparable to LeBron.
Even now there's not much appreciation for Wilt as a dominant once in a generation player, imo.

the pressure is 100% on lebron as if he loses to the team kyrie went to without kyrie (and hayward) its gonna be a hit on his legacy and that is all he has played for the last ten years.

Win or lose, his legacy will be fine, old man.
History will remember and celebrate his achievements, not his failures, as in the case with all legends like Kobe, Magic, Iverson, Jordan, etc.
Except may be for Wilt, probably the only legend with hate levels comparable to LeBron.
Even now there's not much appreciation for Wilt as a dominant once in a generation player, imo.

history will remember lebron in a better light than they probably should. they will look at all the straight finals appearances and not consider the fact that he was basically gifted the finals since the east has been dog shit. the man is great and deserves his place in the history books but whats going on now with the media trying to pump up lebron by shitting on MJ is the worst shit i have ever seen in sports.

Because Jordan is considered the pinnacle right now. It will eventually happen to LeBron and other greats that will follow, they will be shitted on to prop whomever will be the next dominant player.

I can only imagine the frustration Smart causes for you Celtics fans. He makes great defensive plays and occasionally he will hit a big three-pointer. But the way he forces them up when he's a 20% shooter from distance. Decisions like that make his surname feel quite ironic.

history will remember lebron in a better light than they probably should. they will look at all the straight finals appearances and not consider the fact that he was basically gifted the finals since the east has been dog shit. the man is great and deserves his place in the history books but whats going on now with the media trying to pump up lebron by shitting on MJ is the worst shit i have ever seen in sports.

Agreed.

Because Jordan is considered the pinnacle right now. It will eventually happen to LeBron and other greats that will follow, they will be shitted on to prop whomever will be the next dominant player.

Exactly.

Kobe was considered a top SG over MJ by media and fans back then with skillset seemingly greater than what MJ had. Now he is a behind story. Similar will happen for LBJ once retirement ages.

What is rather ridiculous is a lot of nostalgia making MJ virtually god like status. They would get personally offended by just having MJ being mentioned along in current era player discussion as if someone insulted their moms. Objectivity is non existent to them. Jordan is a religion.


People need to lighten up. LBJ despite all that flaws is the closest thing to the Jordan based on everything, and a much better human being too. Discussion is legit regardless how you think its stupid and wanna avoid the talk entirely.

Kobe was considered a top SG over MJ by media and fans back then with skillset seemingly greater than what MJ had.

Some fans also considered Kobe to be overrated, cocky and a terrible teammate.

Because Jordan is considered the pinnacle right now. It will eventually happen to LeBron and other greats that will follow, they will be shitted on to prop whomever will be the next dominant player.

Exactly.

Kobe was considered a top SG over MJ by media and fans back then with skillset seemingly greater than what MJ had. Now he is a behind story. Similar will happen for LBJ once retirement ages.

What is rather ridiculous is a lot of nostalgia making MJ virtually god like status. They would get personally offended by just having MJ being mentioned along in current era player discussion as if someone insulted their moms. Objectivity is non existent to them. Jordan is a religion.


People need to lighten up. LBJ despite all that flaws is the closest thing to the Jordan based on everything, and a much better human being too. Discussion is legit regardless how you think its stupid and wanna avoid the talk entirely.

There is so much wrong with this statement, and flat out untrue parts.

Those who have been following basketball closely since Kobe came into the league know that he wasn't hyped as better than Jordan hardly at all, this LeBron thing isn't even comparable. I barely heard anything about Kobe being the top SG of all time, and the league treated him that way as well (1 MVP). It seems that most of the people who have made comments about Kobe being better than Jordan live in and around LA.

The nostalgia statement again, which is brought up whenever someone doesn't agree with LeBron being a top player of all time.

"Objectivity is non existent to them"

Followed by

"Discussion is legit regardless how you think it's stupid"

Haha.

The discussion is legit to you, NovU. That doesn't mean that it's legit to everybody. I can give (and have given) many reasons why I don't consider it a legit comparison in my opinion. To me, it's not even close.

But comparing the way Kobe was talked about by the media to the way LeBron was/is talked about is laughable, it's literally not even close. This is coming from someone who has lived basketball, specifically the NBA all his life. For the record, I also put Kobe ahead of LeBron.

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LeGreatest period

Kobe was considered a top SG over MJ by media and fans back then with skillset seemingly greater than what MJ had.

Some fans also considered Kobe to be overrated, cocky and a terrible teammate.

He was all that.

The GOAT/best players of all-time discussion is one that we should probably spin off into another topic, assuming of course it's a discussion we can have in good faith. I will say, however, that a name that doesn't come up in those discussion enough is Larry Bird. We talk about MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Kobe, LeBron, The Big O, and so forth - and rightfully so - but I think Bird gets overlooked a bit. I'm not saying he's never mentioned because he obviously is, but I'm not sure he gets enough due in the conversation. Anyway, that's for another topic, if indeed we can have that conversation.

Unfortunately for the 2018 Celtics, as Rick Pitino once said, Larry Bird isn't walking through that door. Well, he might if he comes to pay Danny Ainge a visit, but that's probably not going to help them all that much. LeBron is going to get his numbers, so the best you can hope for there is that he wears himself out and lacks aggressiveness in the second half, which we have seen happen. The rest of the Cavs need to be taken out of the equation, and the offense needs to be firing on all cylinders. Minimise those bad shots, especially the forced threes. Turn defensive stops into points, as they were doing so well in Game 5.

Boston can do it, and I've like to see them to do it, but I can't help envisioning a big game from LeBron getting the job done for Cleveland. Can't count out Boston with the run they've had, but can't count out LeBron, either. Hope it's a Game 7 that lives up to the hype.

The GOAT/best players of all-time discussion is one that we should probably spin off into another topic, assuming of course it's a discussion we can have in good faith. I will say, however, that a name that doesn't come up in those discussion enough is Larry Bird. We talk about MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Kobe, LeBron, The Big O, and so forth - and rightfully so - but I think Bird gets overlooked a bit. I'm not saying he's never mentioned because he obviously is, but I'm not sure he gets enough due in the conversation. Anyway, that's for another topic, if indeed we can have that conversation.

Unfortunately for the 2018 Celtics, as Rick Pitino once said, Larry Bird isn't walking through that door. Well, he might if he comes to pay Danny Ainge a visit, but that's probably not going to help them all that much. LeBron is going to get his numbers, so the best you can hope for there is that he wears himself out and lacks aggressiveness in the second half, which we have seen happen. The rest of the Cavs need to be taken out of the equation, and the offense needs to be firing on all cylinders. Minimise those bad shots, especially the forced threes. Turn defensive stops into points, as they were doing so well in Game 5.

Boston can do it, and I've like to see them to do it, but I can't help envisioning a big game from LeBron getting the job done for Cleveland. Can't count out Boston with the run they've had, but can't count out LeBron, either. Hope it's a Game 7 that lives up to the hype.

Agreed on Bird. The best SF of all time in my opinion. Personally, I have him in my top 3, but not ahead of Jordan.

Here's to hoping LeBron doesn't involve his teammates in game 7, hoping I see him dribble deep into the shot clock on numerous posessions. If he wants to do that in order to get 40 points and 10 assists , so be it. I'll take his teammates shooting contested end of the shot clock shots even if a few of them go in. If he does that though, they will lose.

Hopefully Boston comes out with a balanced attack. I'd like to see 10 shots attempted by 5 or 6 players, get players in a rhythm. Tatum, Brown and Rozier can score on anybody Cleveland throws at them, so even if ISOS are needed in certain situations, they atleast can get the job done.

I don't want the Celtics to get in a 3 point shootout with Cleveland, it's about attacking the paint and utilizing mid range, as well as taking GOOD looks from downtown... not like at the beginning of the 4th last game. And if Horford gets doubled, the other 4 guys need to either dive or get to an open spot. So much standing around when Horford was doubled last game, he's a capable passer.

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Beautiful.



Marcus Smart reminds me of DeShawn Stevenson. Good hustle and defense, terrible shooting.

There are some similarities there, though I'd say Stevenson became a slightly more reliable shooter. If nothing else, he was money in the 2011 Finals.

"LeBron how does my Dirk taste"--he really thought he had one lol

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LeGreatest period

Kobe was considered a top SG over MJ by media and fans back then with skillset seemingly greater than what MJ had.

Some fans also considered Kobe to be overrated, cocky and a terrible teammate.

He was all that.

The trolling is unreal. But I'll play along.

Here, have 2 hours and 33 minutes of basketball genius. This is pure basketball, without half the video being of theatrics and slow motion cutscenes. But with such short attention spans around here, I doubt you will take the time to watch any of it, it's a bit long for you guys to be able to focus.

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In regards to Smart and Stevenson, Smart is a better rebounder and overall a better passer. Stevenson hustled and was an inconsistent shooter, those are the only two similarities between the two. He made a solid impact in the 2011 finals.

Not as much as Jason Terry smoking LeBron though, and even stating during the series that LeBron can't guard him, while proving it again the next game by toasting him. Love Jason Terry, ultimate competitor.

Of course, most times when someone mentions LeBron getting toasted by Terry, it's followed up by the person posting the video or picture of LeBron dunking on the Celtics Jason Terry.... which he better dunk on Terry, the size difference is unreal. If he DIDNT, that would be really sad. Atleast Terry contested the dunk, instead of moving out of the way like some other players do.... Also, that's just one play... not getting burned over and over again in the NBA finals.

And props to Stevenson, one of the only players with the balls to come out and call LeBron overrated. Good for you, Stevenson.

If LeBron

- made the dunk over Draymond Green
- had a teammate like Chris Bosh and solid role players (JJ Barea instead of Boobie Gibson, Tyson Chandler, Jason Terry instead of Larry Hughes etc.) for +10 years instead of a few years having a solid squad
- won the Slam Dunk contest (but it should be something similar to 2000, he could defeat Vince Carter)
- had insane media push and commercials

or

- played for a bigger market team (eg. Chicago, New York)

and if

- KD didn't sign with Warriors

he would be the pinnacle, with no discussion.

what made Jordan the pinnacle is the nostalgia and moments (Slam Dunk Contest, "The Shot", The Flu Game, Father's Day Victory etc.) IMO. the Internet wasn't highly used back in 90's so less discussion and less perceiving existed.

[Dee4Three]

If LeBron

- made the dunk over Draymond Green
- had a teammate like Chris Bosh and solid role players (JJ Barea instead of Boobie Gibson, Tyson Chandler, Jason Terry instead of Larry Hughes etc.) for +10 years instead of a few years having a solid squad
- won the Slam Dunk contest (but it should be something similar to 2000, he could defeat Vince Carter)
- had insane media push and commercials

or

- played for a bigger market team (eg. Chicago, New York)

and if

- KD didn't sign with Warriors

he would be the pinnacle, with no discussion.

what made Jordan the pinnacle is the nostalgia and moments (Slam Dunk Contest, "The Shot", The Flu Game, Father's Day Victory etc.) IMO. the Internet wasn't highly used back in 90's so less discussion and less perceiving existed.

That's completely leaving out 6 championships in 11 full seasons with the Bulls, compared to LeBron with 3 in 15 full seasons. Even counting Jordan's 2 seasons with the Wizards, and his two seasons in which he was either injured or just came back for the last 20 some odd games, it's 6 in 15 compared to 3 and 15.

Outside of championships, he also wins on accolades in general, and the numbers are actually in Jordan's favor in his Bulls years (before coming back at age 38). Even factoring that in, he still wins in numerous stat categories.

Or the fact that the East was considered stronger back in Jordan's time, and the fact that he played with Pippen who started his career with Jordan, Jordan didn't jump on a superstar studded team, or recruit stars to play with him. The only time LeBron won titles is when he jumped on with Wade and Bosh, and when he recruited Kevin Love and jumped on with Kyrie. LeBron has played with players with more all star appearances, and has less to show for it.

Jordan's game is also a lot more pleasing to watch, he's a basketball poet. Better coordination, better defender (DPOY at one point). He was also the ultimate competitor, like Bird.

If you can bring up "dunk contest" as part of a barometer in the people thinking Jordan is better case, I can certainly bring up that fact that he has far more accolades in general (ones far more important than the dunk contest). LeBron would not be the "pinnacle" if those things you mentioned didn't or did happen, you left out a whole lot. Those are a very small sample size of the reasons why myself, and others believe Jordan is superior.

It's also leaving out the question around LeBron's competitiveness, his need to flop and complain to the officials after most any play where he doesn't succeed, his "I", "Me" attitude throughout his career, etc.

Last edited by Dee4Three on Mon May 28, 2018 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

what made Jordan the pinnacle is the nostalgia and moments (Slam Dunk Contest, "The Shot", The Flu Game, Father's Day Victory etc.) IMO. the Internet wasn't highly used back in 90's so less discussion and less perceiving existed.

Lebron James Career (1143 games)
3 Rings
4 NBA MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
1 scoring title

Michael Jordan’s first 667 games, (Pre-Retirement)
3 Rings (6 career)
3 NBA MVPs (5 career)
3 Finals MVPs (6 career)
7 scoring titles (10 career)
3 steals titles
DPOTY

Enjoy

what made Jordan the pinnacle is the nostalgia and moments (Slam Dunk Contest, "The Shot", The Flu Game, Father's Day Victory etc.) IMO. the Internet wasn't highly used back in 90's so less discussion and less perceiving existed.

Lebron James Career (1143 games)
3 Rings
4 NBA MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
1 scoring title

Michael Jordan’s first 667 games, (Pre-Retirement)
3 Rings (6 career)
3 NBA MVPs (5 career)
3 Finals MVPs (6 career)
7 scoring titles (10 career)
3 steals titles
DPOTY

Enjoy

That's why I said that post doesn't tell even close to the whole story or reasoning. Bringing up the dunk contest, and a LeBron missed dunk, and the Mavericks team that the Heat were actually favored against, etc.

Again, outside of accolades and stats, it's the way the man played the game. The ultimate competitor, the coordination, the two way play, etc. Playing in the handcheck era of more physical basketball, while LeBron has played in a less physical, no handcheck era where the offensive player plowing through the lane can't be touched. LeBron is also not more Athletic than Jordan, looking bigger and jumping high doesn't make him a better athlete. Jordan overall is not only a higher jumper, but more coordinated, a lot more ability to do more in the air in regards to evading defenders, switching up shots in the air, embracing contact and adjusting his shot as well. Defensively, Jordan amassed over 250 steals and over 130 blocks as far as single season bests, while LeBron has never broke 180 steals or 100 blocks for his single season bests. Jordan may LOOK less intimidating, but athletically, and skill wise he was absolutely more intimidating.

So many reasons why myself and others don't think it's even close. Pippen argument is so ridiculous, he grew with Jordan in Chicago, he learned from Jordan, he started his career WITH Chicago. Look at his early year production, he wasn't amazing coming into the league. Jordan never recruited for the Bulls, he went and won his first 3 titles with an aged Cartwright, Horace Grant and John Paxson/BJ Armstrong, a young Pippen, and a very forgetful second unit... a very poor second unit.

Those accolades are just in about half the games played. Not only that, Jordan's dominance in the playoffs (clearly) also exceeds James by a large margin, that's not even close (unless you consider about half of the success rate close, but I don't even consider it half).

Using the nostalgia argument is a complete cop out. Someone can give all the legitimate reasons in the world why they think a past player is better than a current player (which I have given many of mine), and the person with the opposing view will STILL say "nostalgia", or stuck in the past. Think about how ridiculous that is? A person who has watched both players through there careers, who has an opinion with points to back it, will be told they have "nostalgia" and that's the reasoning.

Give me break, people can evaluate players and form opinions without that and without being biased. Using that on everybody is a cop out, and downright silly.

And the whole attitude of people who think Jordan is the best of all time getting all uptight and mad about comparisons, or coming to his defense, etc is ridiculous. First off, the LeBron possibly being the GOAT was started and pushed full force by the Media, it's been bludgeoned into people's heads over the last few months, the amount of content put out to start the debates is insane. People who are on the side of LeBron first off, hardly ever have good arguments to defend the stance (it's like one quick soundbite, while ignoring anything else that comes at them), or when someone makes a very valid point about Jordan, they will say "Say that without crying", or "nostalgia", or "stuck in the past, man" or simply " he's the goat, period, appreciate greatness". That's like over 90% of the comments I see where people say LeBron is the goat, and someone says the reasons they think Jordan is. The amount of people that make excuses for LeBron is insane, I've never seen a man get so many excuses made for him. Saying nostalgia for the people who say Jordan is the greatest, while not acknowledging that the vast majority of the people who claim LeBron is the goat NEVER saw Jordan play, or didn't even see Kobes whole career, makes no sense. So the person who saw both play is penalized for "living in the past" while the person who didn't see the other player even lace them up is not talked about.

And for the whole "Just because you think Jordan is the best of all time, doesn't mean that you should not appreciate LeBron's greatness". What? Who says I have to say LeBron is one of the greatest? What if I don't appreciate his competitiveness, his obvious epiphany for stat padding, his lack of two way play and his lack of desire to play two way basketball, or his "I" and "me" attitude that he displays not only on the court, or when he speaks to the media, or his plowing/uncoordinated style of basketball that gets him favored ten fold when going to the hoop, by using a full arm extension, or just bullying his way in when the defense isn't even allow to touch him, his knack for always looking for calls and not getting back on defense because he's in the backcourt complaining to the refs, or the fact that he consistently recruits stars to join him in order to compete, as opposed to just being a competitor, etc etc. I could keep going with my reasons. "Appreciate greatnees" according to who? It's not mandatory if someone has valid reasons why they don't consider them one of the best of all time.

The whole thing gives me a headache because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

You cant deny that LBJ is the player of this generation, of these rules.

But these days,lot of people (kids, media) forget about Jordan, and give too much credit on LBJ's 2 or 3 last years.
Since when losing in Finals is better than winning in Finals ? Is Elgin Baylor another GOAT ?

I think right now, LBJ is on his offense at his best since he came back in Cleveland. But his defense is so overated ("he can guard 5 positions"...)

Jordan played at this level all his career, on offense and defense.
And now, we hear some idiots saying that he had no opponent (check BB top 50 HoF, Jordan played against most of them : 6 on 13, or 15... he won the title), that the Pistons and the Lakers were old (check their ages), that The Blazers werent good (well they were in finals 2 years before)...

In fact, I stopped watching NBA after Jordan's retirement. I went back in 2010.
I discovered autoproclamed "The King" who needed to join Wade and Bosh at Miami, and who disappeared in 2011 Finals.
2011 Dallas wasnt a team of veterans ? nor 2014 Spurs ? They were so much older than the Pistons or The Lakers.

the cult of the present moment

What is rather ridiculous is a lot of nostalgia making MJ virtually god like status. They would get personally offended by just having MJ being mentioned along in current era player discussion as if someone insulted their moms. Objectivity is non existent to them. Jordan is a religion.

this will happen with anyone who is a fanboy of a player. imo jordan becomes untouchable simply because the rules of the game make it easier for players today. when people measure greatness they measure offensive numbers. well in todays game offensive number are much easier to get. cant even look at a player without sending him to the line. jordan played when the rules made scoring harder and he is still the top scorer in the history of the game (not total points of course). same logic goes into why no one will ever touch kareem in the ncaa. they literally changed the rules to make life harder for him and he still shit on everyone.


of course there is a flip side to this. jordan and pippen are remembered a lot for their defense and people use it a lot as the deciding factor but they were given the benefit of the hand check, you telling me kobe or lebron would not be better defensively (maybe nor jordan/pippen level but still much better) if they could push people around the court?

Do you think I would be wrong if I say Lebron might be the most versatile player in NBA history?

Do you think I would be wrong if I say Lebron might be the most versatile player in NBA history?

i think he is. thats not to say others from the past could not have been more versatile the game just didnt allow it. the past was very much by the book when it came to positions players played.

but yeah i cant think of a player i would rank above lebron in versatility.

Game 7 is about to tip off. Here we go.