This is why I have little to no faith in the younger crowd....

[NovU]

It seems you place way too much importance in playing style beauty. Skills and moves all purpose to generate points and stop opponent team from scoring. They're only important because they produce better stats.


Kobe is far superior to Michael Jordan in terms of skills. Not only has he perfect all moves of Jordan but even created his own sets of dazzling moves. And he is superior in worth ethics as well. Killer instinct? Check. Mental edge? Check. Not only Kobe suffice all your requirements of being better player than Jordan, he exceeds it. This is why your narrative is stupid and subjective. It swings any way to fit your own purpose, thus not agreeable to many.

Only evidence Jordan was better than Kobe is because he produced better stats with whatever limited skills/tools he had. Result is what matters and stats consists large part of it.


2005/06 Kobe was beautiful. He scored 35.4 per game and scored 40+ countless times. Many say it was his MVP season as he was doing everything he can to win. But guess the real reason 06 Kobe still wasn't still better than Jordan despite all that mental edge, dazzling unseen moves, and scoring prowess. Are you to tell me you watched entire season of Kobe and compare it to Jordan's certain season?

[formx]

mfw people are arguing who's the best when it's clear the beautiful African French-Canadian beast Joel Anthony is the best to ever play the game.

[Dee4Three]

It seems you place way too much importance in playing style beauty. Skills and moves all purpose to generate points and stop opponent team from scoring. They're only important because they produce better stats.


Kobe is far superior to Michael Jordan in terms of skills. Not only has he perfect all moves of Jordan but even created his own sets of dazzling moves. And he is superior in worth ethics as well. Killer instinct? Check. Mental edge? Check. Not only Kobe suffice all your requirements of being better player than Jordan, he exceeds it. This is why your narrative is stupid and subjective. It swings any way to fit your own purpose, thus not agreeable to many.

Only evidence Jordan was better than Kobe is because he produced better stats with whatever limited skills/tools he had. Result is what matters and stats consists large part of it.


2005/06 Kobe was beautiful. He scored 35.4 per game and scored 40+ countless times. Many say it was his MVP season as he was doing everything he can to win. But guess the real reason 06 Kobe still wasn't still better than Jordan despite all that mental edge, dazzling unseen moves, and scoring prowess. Are you to tell me you watched entire season of Kobe and compare it to Jordan's certain season?

I completely disagree with all of this. Jordan did all of that better than Kobe, he was more efficient. Jordan used his body better, and had an even better post game. Jordan, to me, was better at getting to his spots, and was still better at contorting his body. Bringing up 35.4? Jordan averaged 37.1 for an entire season. Basically, any stats you come at me with, I can come right back at you with stats of my own. I think Kobe is an all time great, a legend, but I don't think he is as good as Jordan. Jordan was also a better rebounder, had better court vision, and was a superior shot blocker. Offensively and defensively, I take Jordan.

However, because you brought up a single season best as an argument, here are the single season bests for both players.

Michael Jordan: 37.1 PPG, 131 blocks, 259 Steals, 650 assists, 652 rebounds, .857 FT%, .538 FG%
Kobe Bryant: 35.4 PPG, 67 blocks, 181 steals, 481 assists, 517 rebounds, .868 FT%, .469 FG%

Any stats you bring up, I can bring up my own as well. Kobe gets squashed in everything but FT%. But, stats don't tell the whole story. Visually, I feel Jordan is more dominant, an overall better player.

Are you to tell me you watched entire season of Kobe and compare it to Jordan's certain season?

This again, is complete junk, trash, throw it away. Not one of us, any of us, has watched EVERY GAME. I stated that you can watch full games/highlights in large samples. You guys sound absolutely ridiculous with these statements.

You guys seriously, the constant "Have you watched every game!?" and other childish, repetitive stuff has to go.. it really does.... Its really draining to have to continue repeating myself. I have made my case and why I believe the way I do, you guys have differing opinions. I have brought far more of my beliefs and opinions to the table than either of you, and neither one of you has swayed me in the least.

[Dee4Three]

mfw people are arguing who's the best when it's clear the beautiful African French-Canadian beast Joel Anthony is the best to ever play the game.

[NovU]

I completely disagree with all of this. Jordan did all of that better than Kobe. Jordan used his body better, and had an even better post game. Jordan, to me, was better at getting to his spots, and was still better at contorting his body. Bringing up 35.4? Jordan averaged 37.1 for an entire season. Basically, any stats you come at me with, I can come right back at you with stats of my own. I think Kobe is an all time great, a legend, but I don't think he is as good as Jordan. Jordan was also a better rebounder, had better court vision, and was a superior shot blocker. Offensively and defensively, I take Jordan.

There is nothing for you to disagree in what I said. It's all in lines of narrative you have been spewing here in order to discredit anything stats related. The point stands. How does all that make Jordan better than Kobe? Kobe used his body extremely well. Had post up game. He was a better contortionist(Jordan by age of 30 was a fadeaway shooter). Two can play this game of stupidity if you insist.


This is exactly the problem. When Kobe was in prime, people raved how skillful hence better than Jordan. Same kind of people argued against them in same silly tune and manner how Jordan was better at contorting body, and better at each area of basketball.

Why not just look at the result, what has been produced with all those nice things. #stats

[Dee4Three]

I completely disagree with all of this. Jordan did all of that better than Kobe. Jordan used his body better, and had an even better post game. Jordan, to me, was better at getting to his spots, and was still better at contorting his body. Bringing up 35.4? Jordan averaged 37.1 for an entire season. Basically, any stats you come at me with, I can come right back at you with stats of my own. I think Kobe is an all time great, a legend, but I don't think he is as good as Jordan. Jordan was also a better rebounder, had better court vision, and was a superior shot blocker. Offensively and defensively, I take Jordan.

There is nothing for you to disagree in what I said. It's all in lines of narrative you have been spewing here in order to discredit anything stats related. The point stands. How does all that make Jordan better than Kobe? Kobe used his body extremely well. Had post up game. He was a better contortionist(Jordan by age of 30 was a fadeaway shooter). Two can play this game of stupidity if you insist.


This is exactly the problem. When Kobe was in prime, people raved how skillful hence better than Jordan. Same kind of people argued against them in same silly tune and manner how Jordan was better at contorting body, and better at each area of basketball.

Why not just look at the result, what has been produced with all those nice things. #stats

Kobe did all of that well, Jordan just did it better.

Stats can sometimes help the story, but they can't tell the whole story. That's where we need to be visual and form our own opinions on said players.

We are going in circles guys... lets move on.

[NovU]

Kobe did all of that well, Jordan just did it better.

Exactly, all that narratives you say is pretty much this arrogant statement that bases on ZERO evidence. Anyone can play this game just like younger crowd that thinks old people are stupid and nostalgic.

I think some of us are over that stage and rather examine through evidence hence eye test is often little to no argument otherwise for a single/isolated game or instance.

[Dee4Three]

That is your opinion, NovU. We will note agree on this.

[shadowgrin]

Joel Anthony is the greatness to ever play the game.

Truth.

[NovU]

Let me just ask you these 2 really basic question.

1) Brandon Roy comes off the screen and takes a wide open jump shot to score a couple points. T-Mac plays iso, bamboozles the defender to hit a fadeaway jumpshot for 2 points. Do you not think it produces equal 2 points?

2) Now, in a game of basketball, Brandon Roy takes wide open jumpshots all day while Jordan takes contortionist's shot all day, which team do you think will win?

[Dee4Three]

Here are two super basic answers for you.

1) Both players can hit that shot off the screen. But TMAC could as you say, bamboozle you with more efficiency than Roy. He had a quicker first step, and could shoot over anybody in the league with no space. Two points is two points, but I go with TMAC if I need buckets.

2) Brandon Roy with a wide open jumper as opposed to Jordan taking a tough drive where he contorts his body to finish? It depends, if Jordan is driving on single coverage, and gets to the rim, I go with Jordan at the rim. If Jordan drives and is double or triple teamed at the hoop, I go with Roy (unless Jordan is going ballistic, like the many 50 point games he's had... hard to say no to an unstoppable Jordan). So while both players get two, I take Jordan any day over Roy to get buckets.


Now let me ask you a really, really, super basic question:

If you watch a lot of a player, and you see that said player can rely on his jump shot, his post game, and his mid range game in general, and he uses that repetoire game in and game out, but you watch another player who cannot rely on those aspects of his game, is hesitant, and doesn't show efficiency in those skills, is that first player better than that second player at those skills?

[NovU]

Exactly buddy. Now you see why 06 Kobe wasn't as good as Jordan's.

Kobe taking tough shots returned about the league average Field Goal Percentage. Why not run offense through a team with mediocre offense, returns same points per possession as Kobe.

It's so evidently clear and nice through stats and we don't need 1000 words of narrative with subjectivity.


Skills/moves/mental all purpose to serve same goal.

[Dee4Three]

Exactly buddy. Now you see why 06 Kobe wasn't as good as Jordan's.

Kobe taking tough shots returned about the league average Field Goal Percentage. Why not run offense through a team with mediocre offense, returns same points per possession as Kobe.

It's so evidently clear and nice through stats and we don't need 1000 words of narrative with subjectivity.


Skills/moves/mental all purpose to serve same goal.

Champ... you didn't prove anything. You are the only one who made a fake argument in favor of Kobe, I said Jordan was superior and more efficient, which you just agreed with... thanks for agreeing with me... I guess.

FG% has some holes in it. For example. Allen Iverson. Iverson was required by his team to shoot a lot of shots, he was the clear go to on all of his 76ers teams, he was most always taking the tough shots at the end of quarters, shots at the end of the shot clock, etc. He was required to create his own shot the majority of the time. FG% for say, John Stockton, is not nearly the same. Stockton was the #2, #3 or even #4 scorer on his team's on any given season or night. Stockton moved into open spots and took high percentage shots, because he wasn't required to go one on one, and didn't have the skill set as someone like Iverson to do so at the clip Iverson did. Stockton shot 57% one season, Iverson was never even close. Does that make Stockton a better scorer than Iverson, no... they were different players with different skill sets, with different team needs.

Would you say Deandre Jordan is better inside than David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon because they play the same position and Deandre Jordan crushes them on FG%? No, you would look at how they play and how they get there baskets, and how teams defend them, etc, and say that skill wise Olajuwon and Robinson are far superior. Stats don't tell the whole story.

However, you didn't answer my question, but I answered yours. If you could, please answer my question.

[NovU]

That is why we have better things than FG%. It's all correlated. efg%, ts%, ORtg, etc.

I don't think I need to add that my logic carries much more conceivable points than your subjective and yet arrogant narrative. Jordan being a better contortionist sounds like a sales pitch at used car lot if you ask me.

There's a reason why the NBA teams these days hire statistical analysts to run and manage their teams. Mark Cuban is a great example, greatly values statisticians. John Hollinger an inventor of PER has been a GM of Grizzlies for awhile now. Statisticians are widely hired and put to use in this league, has been for awhile now at all levels of operation. Even college offers programs in sports analytics specialized in stats. There's a reason why stats are so valued even for those that make living out of basketball.

Media that needs to sell would come up with stupid narratives tho, cuz it's fun. Some of us don't fly that way here tho. Are Skip Clueless and Stephen A smith more of your likes, plays game of whoever has louder voice all day.

[Dee4Three]

So you can't answer my question.

That's what I thought.

[Sauru]

Kobe is far superior to Michael Jordan in terms of skills.

hyperbole to the max

[air gordon]

He was a better contortionist. Man I have seen it all now.

I thought rec league play took the cake but this is at another level. Some Ancient one stuff

Andrew have you ever seen this before? Really. Jordan is your guy so you would know

I may have to retire after that one

Just cuz I'll ask- How come 3pters are left out of the discussion? Coincidence?

I did the rings in high school ftw

[Dee4Three]

He was a better contortionist. Man I have seen it all now.

This, folks.. is what we call "cherry picking", and it's the second time its been brought up by the dynamic duo known as Air Gordon and NovU. I didn't use the word contortionist, I said he was better at contorting his body to finish. If you guys paid more attention, you would see what I was talking about. Again, you both come off very childish and immature.

with Lebron having the slight edge on 3PT %

I didn't conveniently leave out 3pt shooting. I stated that LeBron had the edge on Jordan. The career percentages are .342 to .327. The league average since LeBron joined the league is .350 and above, so just like Jordan, they were average or below average 3 point shooters. It wasn't conveniately left out, it was mentioned earlier in this thread.

I did the rings in high school ftw

Feeling a little insecure? Who brought up rings? Don't worry, I've already mentioned people who have less rings that are higher on my list, you can relax.


Btw, I mentioned rec league play to talk about how even players at a low level of basketball know to take advantage of size. It was absolutely relevant to the topic. Again, that is cherry picking, and you sound silly referencing it multiple times.

Oh, see what I did there? I responded to everything from your post, I didn't cherry pick one thing, or two things. Let's see if you can give that a try moving forward.


Also, don't bail NovU out, He hasn't answered my question yet, and I've done nothing but answer both of yours for a couple pages now.

[debiler]

Kobe is far superior to Michael Jordan in terms of skills.

Seriously? I mean, if that is truly your opinion, then you cannot participate in a profound discussion about basketball. I will agree that Kobe's skillset is

a. quite similar to MJ's and
b. he may even have perfected some of MJ's moves and maybe surpassed the GOAT in those in terms of execution and effectiveness

But to make an absolute statement like you did is absolutely ludicrous and can only mean that

1. you're staying in this discussion just for fun now and deliberately trying to aggravate Dee4Three
2. you are totally biased by your preference for modern players (nothing wrong with liking the new NBA, though) and never actually experienced how great Jordan and Bird were

What's next? Somebody gonna claim that Draymond is a superior defender than Rodman was?

[NovU]

Sauru is right. It was a hyperbole.

That's beside the point, I don't necessarily believe it.

[shadowgrin]

What's next? Somebody gonna claim that Draymond is a superior defender than Rodman was?

Talking about defense in general and not a Draymond vs Rodman debate...

Since the rules greatly favor the offense in today's game, the defense is already at a disadvantage yet there are still players that manage to overcome that disadvantage and standout because of their good defense.

Add to that the good offenses today are more complex, more ball movement, more screens off-ball and on-ball, more THREEZ that spread the defense, and you could already see that playing good defense today takes a lot more effort than just molest and assault the ball handler like they did in the past.

So it's not really that absurd to ponder that the defense of today could possibly be as good or arguably even be better than the way defense is played in the past.


Still, Rodman > Draymond on defense.

[NovU]

That's some fine points. When was the last time you heard "Defense wins the championship." Forever.

I don't remember seeing teams casually scoring 130+ points at ease in the Finals like this season, sets the record each game with raining 3s, triple double average guy from losers team. Offense wins the championship, no wonder today's kids don't play defense like Jarmes Hardon and Andrew Wiggins.

[Dee4Three]

This

Novu wrote:

Sauru is right. It was a hyperbole.

That's beside the point, I don't necessarily believe it.

Is this, exactly.

Postby debiler on Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:30 am
NovU wrote:
Kobe is far superior to Michael Jordan in terms of skills.

1. you're staying in this discussion just for fun now and deliberately trying to aggravate Dee4Three

Because my questions are not answered, and because you have not brought up ANY actual points of your own outside of advanced stats, it is clear that the attempt is to just aggravate because you don't have a good argument. Air Gordon is also in this boat, as it's clear with his posts full of wiseass remarks, sarcasm, and flatout aggravation tactics, that he does not have any legitimate argument whatsoever, so those tactics are needed in order to make himself feel elite, smart, and to divert attention off of his lack of basketball knowledge. Literally three pages of me not dodging questions, and replying to absolutely ridiculous sarcastic remarks, and immaturity. You guys lost this one a long time ago. Between exaggerating "Life story" (Shadowgrin), when I was making fair comparisons or answering questions, by continuously bringing up rec league when I only used it as a relevant point in the discussion, the cherry picking a word I used to describe an ability that a player has over another and somehow making fun of that term, completely ignoring 90% or more of each statement because you have nothing to combat it with, you guys are absolutely losing. And the funny part is, because you guys havn't brought anything to the table really, at all... I have no idea where you stand or what you know in regards to basketball, other than that you look at advanced stats. Air Gordon blatantly lying stating he had to explain advanced stats to me, lying stating that 3pt shooting was not brought up, you guys are completely lost with no argument whatsoever.

Oh, and this is foreshadowing because of the way you guys communicate. NovU, no excuse of "Your question was not worth my time" or not worth answering, I have answered some of the most basic, ridiculous questions in the last couple pages in this forum, because I have a strong viewpoint and I don't back down from it. You both do not, and that is very clear.

As I am attempting a basketball discussion I get bombarded with this:

Postby shadowgrin on Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:44 pm

Jackal, to quote one of the greatest thespians in our time, "I'd beat your ass like a Cherokee drum!"
Maybe fist it too.

Postby Jackal on Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:13 pm

God damn NLSC Questioneer, I've missed your cancerous homo erotic ass.

Take me now.

Postby shadowgrin on Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:22 am

Some of the posts in this thread increase the readers' risk of cancer.

That is the type of intelligence I am dealing with, in a NBA discussion.

Air Gordon get's credit for expanding slightly more, but his goal of aggravation is also very apparent.


This entire time, I have not only answered questions, I have stuck by my viewpoint and continued to make points that show I am passionate about my stance. I also have stayed on topic, and not dodged questions. You guys lose any credibility when you are in a basketball discussion, and it's clear that your goal is to aggravate/disrupt without making a clear, strong stance of your own on the topic discussed. You just sound ridiculous.

My points about how I view players based on how they perform on the court, how I view the players skillsets, I have shown stats to show that any stats brought up, I can bring up some of my own, I have stated why I felt certain players were better (Not just talking about stats, bringing up how they play on the court and what I feel they are better at), I have answered comparison questions, etc. You guys have the audacity to mock me? Or act like I am an idiot? Are you kidding me? What world are you guys living in? Clearly it's a fantasy world.

By the way, I am absolutely not going anywhere.

[Dee4Three]

Lebron stating after this series "I have no reason to look back at what I could of done, or should have done better for the team", and "It would be the same if you feel like you wrote the best column of your life, and somebody picked another one over you".

phpBB [video]

LeBron praising himself, while not acknowledging what he COULD have absolutely done better to help his team through the first 4 games, which was not shoot under 40% from the field in the 4th quarter, not make key turnovers like he did, and not shy away from the moment (1-4 one fourth, 1-1 another), literally not showing aggressiveness. He also could have played better defense, as it was clear that he was not getting back on many plays, and not helping when players got into the lane. Greatest column ever, equating it to his greatest performance ever (That's what he was saying, I believe), what?

I'm seeing people Calling this the greatest finals performance, or stating that he was unstoppable, they cannot be looking at the whole picture. They are looking at his triple double average. His second half performances in games 1 through 4 were NOT good, they were not clutch, they were passive and incomplete. Greatest ever? Greatest finals performance of all time? Finals MVP discussed? How is a player who shoots sub 40% in the second half of 4 of the 5 games even being talked about like this, how is it even discussed as the greatest ever? What!?????

What games were you guys watching? The triple double average is the classic example of cherry picking stats while not actually watching what was going on. This team goes as Kyrie goes, Kyrie is who shines in the big moments, and he needs to have big games (Which is why they won game 4). We are witnessing an extremely watered down league, with people not valuing the true essence of great basketball or greatness in general.

The league is completely watered down right now, with most of teams having the same play style (No real post game, no teams really utilizing the mid range game). Its a launch a three or drive mentality. Players looking for fouls more than playing, most players shying away from challenges (Durant, I see you). I will continue watching the NBA, because I love basketball, but the league is weak in my opinion right now.

[shadowgrin]

Talk about obsession. That specific post was in reply to Jackal, it doesn't concern you or should be bothered by it.

A different topic diverging from another topic is not something new to the forums or even exclusive to this forums.

This thread didn't even start as an invitation to intelligent discussion, all I see in the OP was you posting a pic of a conversation you disagree with and had to bitch about.

Just because you're the thread creator doesn't grant you dictator status to tell what people should talk about in a non-important thread.

No one is forcing you to reply to Jackal's sexy homo erotic posts or keep up your comprehension with branching topics, you can ignore it entirely and focus on your preferred topic to pound on whether it be Jackal's ass or 'verbal gymnastics' with air gordon.

Now move along and stop name dropping me in your posts just because you get ignored by those you're having a discussion with.