Miami Heat Thread

[NovU]

Not really the contrary as that's the case for Kobe and a lot others. Despite Bron's number dipping a bit in the playoffs, it's still better than Kobe's and is still more than great. One could argue he could have done more than Kobe with better supports in this case.

A worse supporting cast should lead to better individual numbers? I don't think that's the case with a lot of categories in advanced stats. Or are we talking basic boxscore stats here...

[koberulz]

A worse supporting cast should lead to better individual numbers? I don't think that's the case with a lot of categories in advanced stats. Or are we talking basic boxscore stats here...

It should lead to an increase in shot attempts, at the very least (as I said before). LeBron's went through the floor.

[shadowgrin]

Despite Bron's number dipping a bit in the playoffs, it's still better than Kobe's and is still more than great. One could argue he could have done more than Kobe with better supports in this case.

Even if LeBron's teammates had stepped up and won games, LeBron still faded away late. That remains true regardless of the result, and that is what LeBron is being criticised for.

A worse supporting cast should lead to better individual numbers? I don't think that's the case with a lot of categories in advanced stats.

That wasn't what you were implying with the Kevin Love 'stat padder' discussion in some thread. Unless your mindset has changed now.

[NovU]

Ahhh Kevin Love. Let's just say I came to senses perhaps because of that. Till then I was actually half half in advanced stats but now I have more faith in it.

A worse supporting cast should lead to better individual numbers? I don't think that's the case with a lot of categories in advanced stats. Or are we talking basic boxscore stats here...

It should lead to an increase in shot attempts, at the very least (as I said before). LeBron's went through the floor.

? Is that your argument to "A worse supporting cast should lead to better individual numbers."?

[koberulz]

The whole point is that your teammates aren't getting stats, so there are more available. Shots, points, rebounds, etc. Assists would probably be harder to come by, but everything else should go up.

Either way, it's irrelevant. The supporting cast on the Heat would be relevant when discussing LeBron's season-long performance, but not when comparing his Finals performance to his performance for the rest of the season, because he had the same teammates.

[NovU]

Sure it's irrelevant again. Sure sure.

As for your point, it doesn't sound right to me. In our case, Lebron and Kobe share about the same ball usage. Lebron has been more productive and efficient with that usage. He gets a nod in my book just like David Robinson did in my center list. Say there's a remaining 70% of ball usage for rest of players. Kobe's teammates obviously have been much more productive with that 70% of ball usage thus resulting in significanly more wins than Lebron's teammates did. So whatever the claim of yours saying that shots, points, rebounds should, etc should go up doesn't make sense as they both supporting casts share about the same ball usage. And advanced stats take those stuff into a consideration.

[koberulz]

Thank you. You just conclusively proved both supporting classes are of decent quality. Which was my argument, and the opposite to yours, which is a little odd. And again, you're comparing LeBron to Kobe. Why? This is about LeBron. Kobe Bryant is completely irrelevant.

I'd also like to know what planet you're on where 57 is 'significantly more' than 58.

[NovU]

Thank you. You just conclusively proved both supporting classes are of decent quality.

??? Based on what... Bcuz we now know for sure Kobe's had superior supports all career long thus winning him more games. That was my point actually if that was too hard for you to get.

[koberulz]

Wins are irrelevant, too.

LeBron performed worse in the Finals than in the playoffs, both this year and 2007. He stopped shooting, he stopped attacking the rim, he disappeared late.

What does Kobe Bryant, LeBron's supporting cast, the results of the games, or anything else you've brought up have to do with any of that?

[shadowgrin]

Seems like you are greatly undermining Kobe's contributions to the Lakers' success NovU.

Win Shares per 48. LeBron's playoff is always lower than his regular season, with the exception of 08-09 (higher) and 06-07 (same in regular and playoffs, Finals appearance).

While Kobe increased his in the playoffs during the Lakers' success when he became the main man.
Lakers championship seasons, 08-09 and 09-10, higher. 05-08 and 10-11, lower playoffs than regular season.
If Kobe was actually bailed out more times by his teammates in the playoffs then shouldn't his wins contribution be less or equal as his regular season contribution during the Lakers' success instead of being higher?
A case could also be made out that when Kobe contributes to the team, they win and if Kobe fails, they lose.

BUT SHADOW, KOBE HAD A BETTER SUPPORTING CAST SO THEY WIN MORE THUS INCREASING THEIR WINS (SHARES)!

True, but then let us look at effectiveness in the playoffs. Kobe's playoff PER from 07-10 were always higher than his regular season PER as compared to LeBron who always had lower playoff PER to his regular season PER with the exception of 08-09.

Kobe had shown that he became effective during the playoffs and contributed significantly to the Lakers successful seasons and all this talk of KOBE HAD BETTER SUPPORTING CAST TO BAIL HIM OUT AND SUCKS MORE THAN LEBRON DURING PLAYOFFS is garbage.
LeBron's numbers are mind boggling no doubt, but it still doesn't change the fact the he becomes less effective during the playoffs in his young career.

[NovU]

Who'd thought grin's arguments are much more sensible than koberulz's. Oh... grin's not a typical kobe fan.

Well... Yeah grin. It's true I understated Kobe and overstated for Bron to get some points acrossed. Perhaps I will get back to you on your post later today. Going work for now.

[shadowgrin]

It's true I understated Kobe and overstated for Bron to get some points acrossed.

You're no different from koberulz 'who has better fundamentals than LeBron James' if that's the case. Both of you are the same. Both of you disgust me.

[koberulz]

Who'd thought grin's arguments are much more sensible than koberulz's. Oh... grin's not a typical kobe fan.

This has nothing to do with Kobe. How many times do I need to say that?

It's true I understated Kobe and overstated for Bron to get some points acrossed.

But they're not points that have anything to do with the argument I'm making, so why bother?

[Jackal]

You're one of those people that just talks for the sake of talking. I hope someone some day tells you to shut the fuck up. Till then, make do with me asking you to shut the fuck up. Kthnx.

[NovU]

grin's comment is true and right so not going to argue against that. But instead allow me to elaborate more on what I originally was pointing out, on the notion that Bron just fails and just fails in the games that matter, the notion I get which many people just forget to see the game as 5 vs 5.

Lebron's 08-09 season I think is a good sample. Playoffs numbers of 0.399ws/48 and 37.4 PER while logging the most minutes on the team? Just wows me. Those figures I believe should be the best ever by anyone(correct me if I'm wrong), even MJ himself didn't come close. I'm almost surprised how he couldn't have had little more success with such numbers. But then look at the rosters.

His only trip to the finals before joining the Heat was with this roster and that's with as 32 years old Big Z as a second best player on the team. The opponent in the Finals? The Spurs with loaded talent. That I think somewhat justifies Lebron's failure in one of the Finals. That leaves us with this year's finals. While Lebron's numbers took a drop in the Finals, rest of the team's help was non-existent as well, outside of Dwayne Wade. In 3 of 6 games, Lebron didn't look like himself. If the teammates could have saved 1 or 2 from there(which definitely was doable!), I have a feeling that the series could had a different looks. That's all I was saying, I guess.

[koberulz]

But nobody's criticising the Heat for losing. They're criticising LeBron for playing hot potato and refusing to be aggressive. The supporting casts, results of the game, and even to a degree the defense he's up against are irrelevant.

In the two 2007 Finals games I've watched so far, he took somewhere around three layups. He didn't attack the basket a single time in game one, came out aggressive in game two, got to the rim, was dominating, got a couple of fouls, sat out, came back in and went back to throwing up long two-point jump shots (the worst shot in the game).

Now granted, and as I said before, nobody in the NBA can set a decent screen, and coming off an NBA-style pick you're actually better off going away from the basket than towards it (also not helped by the fact that Amar'e is the only guy in the league who rolls properly), but to fail to attack the basket even once in seven of eight quarters is, from someone of LeBron's calibre, horrible.

[Its_asdf]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... _28_Pounds

Good news everyone!

Oliver Miller-Lite is attempting another comeback!

Isn't this like the 14th "Oh man Eddy Curry's losing some weight to prove the haters wrong!" comeback attempt?

[Andrew]

It's certainly a familiar story.

[_Steve_]

A healthy Curry would be a nice addition to the Heat. Seems like Pat is quite shaking up his roster. His plan to sign vets who haven't won a ring yet sounds familiar...

[Its_asdf]

I really don't see how adding an all-offense, turnover prone Michelin Man would benefit the Heat who are in need of a strong defensive post presence.

[koberulz]

Eddy Curry isn't a strong defensive post presence? No way you're getting around him.

[rise]

It would be the same kind of thing as this.

[Andrew]

He's got the size but quickness and defensive instincts/abilities are another story. He's big enough to have some impact defensively if only by accident, but I wouldn't call him a strong defensive presence in the post.

[NovU]

Whether Sammy Damnbear joins the Heat or not, I have a feeling Curry's minutes are going to be very limited anyways. Curry was always a sucky playa. Now that he's been outta league and shape for so long, I doubt he'll be much of an impact maker. I am thinking he particularly wants the Heat mainly because he could get more attention here and could lead to another good contract if makes an impact here and there while not having asked to do too much. Just my feeling...

[koberulz]

He's got the size but quickness and defensive instincts/abilities are another story. He's big enough to have some impact defensively if only by accident, but I wouldn't call him a strong defensive presence in the post.

He's fat, and therefore hard to get around. It was a joke.