Pistons not looking too smart...

by **EGarrett** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:01 am

http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/pco ... 031027.htm

Darko doesn't make the rotation...and they need a small forward.

Boy I hope he turns out to be a superstar in a few years...because right now they're trying to contend for a championship...they have tons of bigs and they need a scorer...

:roll:

by **Jackal** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:31 am

The name Carmelo Anthony comes to mind for some reason...wonder why.

YouTube · by **Andrew** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:26 am

I remember the days when the second overall draft choice would get an opportunity to play in his rookie season, maybe even starting. I guess those days are long gone.

by **Jackal** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:47 am

Players are being drafted more on their potential, "this player COULD become this this and this", players aren't being drafted on basis of what they CAN do right now.

YouTube · by **Andrew** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:18 pm

Exactly. There once was a time when players who could have an immediate impact as well as having the potential to be great would be taken with lottery picks. Those players would usually start a bulk of their rookie season, playing significant minutes and possibly even leading the team in something other than DNP-CDs.

by **Jackal** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:38 pm

Milic is a perfect example of that, I doubt he'll play a whole lot this season, there are four guys ahead of him, he will record quite a few DNP's IMO. :roll:

by **Matt** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:58 pm

and why is this so surprising?
the day Milicic was drafted i said he wouldn't play much if at all and everyone was saying he'd be in the rotation or starting. The Pistons chose Milicic for some definate reasons 1. they don't need him to contribute right away 2. Prince's emergence in the playoffs gives the team a good starting SF

Anyway, most guys that are 18 don't contribute much anyway, in time they develop.............just take a look at KG, Kobe, J O'Neal
Milicic will be ready in 2,3 years

by **Vins15** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:52 pm

not rili the Pistons are stacked at all poisiton i think...maybe the SG needed a little upgrade..

by **Pirate** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:57 pm

and why is this so surprising?
the day Milicic was drafted i said he wouldn't play much if at all and everyone was saying he'd be in the rotation or starting. The Pistons chose Milicic for some definate reasons 1. they don't need him to contribute right away 2. Prince's emergence in the playoffs gives the team a good starting SF

Anyway, most guys that are 18 don't contribute much anyway, in time they develop.............just take a look at KG, Kobe, J O'Neal
Milicic will be ready in 2,3 years

Excellent Point. This kid, yes, kid is not like KG TMac And Jermaine he's younger. Milicic unlike these American rookies, would only be a senior in US High Schools this year, essentially he was a junior when he was drafted

by **paul_pierce_the_truth** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:00 pm

I remember the rumor mill pointing to a comment to the effect of...

"Larry Brown has suggested that he may have come to the Pistons too late to land Carmelo Anthony, but he did repeatedly suggest to Joe Dumars that they at least take a long look at selecting Anthony."

I do not have a source, it was basically a comment I heard on TNT predraft or on ESPN sometime.

I think for the record Larry Brown wanted the Syracuse Freshman.

Milicic is about half or one third as ready as Anthony or LeBron, I would say years from understanding first the American game, then growing up enough to play NBA ball.

If anyone could afford to wait, it's the Pistons, they already have a fine club.

Imagine:
G-Billups
G-Hamilton
F-Carmelo
F-Okur
C-Wallace

They also could have selected Dwayne Wade, TJ Ford or Chris Bosh.

by **air gordon** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:31 pm

i don't really see this as a big problem, as almost all the teams in the nba have dept problems at least in one position. for the pistons, its the SF. but they have pretty decent backups everywhere else.

since they're great at defense, the pistons don't have to score as much as other teams. as far as scoring goes, hamilton is very solid and billups has shown he is capable of being a clutch performer. okur's development and campbell's addition should give them a decent inside game. not a 100pg squad, but i think the pistons scoring total will increase

i also think they should have drafted anthony but Joe Dumars has been doing a great job since he's taken over, i trust his judgement

YouTube · by **Andrew** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:26 pm

It's true that it's not a great concern for the Pistons, and Milicic is probably going to be like most other 17/18 year olds who are drafted in that he'll take a few years to develop into a significant player, but it's another case of a team "wasting" a lottery pick on potential.

Milicic might become a great player, he could become a great player, but that's yet to happen. And right now, he's considered to be behind other players who were obviously still available when the Pistons selected him second overall (Carmelo Anthony, to name one).

With so many other big men taking spots in the Brown's nine man rotation, the Pistons may as well not have Milicic at all. He has the potential to be an important part of the regular rotation in the future, but he might not turn out as expected. Which brings us back to the question, is it better to draft a player with potential and possibly be set for the future when plans (and the roster) changes? Or is it better to get a player who can make an immediate impact?

by **bballer22** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:42 pm

i think the nba is moving fowards, u have to try new things, no it seems that getting a player with a very good collage record will not do, look at Denny Farry for ex. or cristial leathner, juan dixon, u have to go with potantional, its been shown with the HS stars in nba and eoropian, look at tony parkers stats fomr France! thats was probably their advantage where it came draft time, player like Camlo would no doubt want time and shots, but their are a deep team and getting a yound and good euro player is perfect coz he can wait abit, get used to the game and contribute alot!

YouTube · by **Andrew** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:05 pm

But potential is just potential until it's fulfilled. People talk about potential as though it's strictly a positive thing. Those same players who have the potential to be great also have the potential to be busts.

Rookie classes appear weaker than they actually are, because the rookies aren't getting the playing time. Why aren't they getting the playing time? Because many of them are stuck behind veterans. Why are they stuck behind veterans? Because while those veterans aren't necessarily great players, they're established NBA players who are capable of solid performances, while the rookies are not ready.

Danny Ferry and Christian Laettner are examples of players who didn't become great players despite college experience. But what about Leon Smith, Darius Miles and Kwame Brown? We all know about Leon's problems, Kwame is a first overall draft choice who's yet to be given a good opportunity to prove himself, and Miles hasn't shown that much improvement in his three years in the NBA. In fact, Miles' stats actually declined in some areas despite more playing time and a bigger role in Cleveland.

It's not necessarily about college experience, either. Parker was obviously NBA ready when he was drafted, as was Pau Gasol. They were drafted, showed they could play in the NBA and were given the opportunity. They weren't drafted then left on the bench for two years while other players that could have been taken instead immediately made a difference for the teams that did draft them.

So again, is it better to get a player who might be able to contribute later (but might just as easily be a bust), or get a player who can not only get better with time and effort, but also make a good contribution now?

by **alexboom** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:40 pm

Andrew wrote:I remember the days when the second overall draft choice would get an opportunity to play in his rookie season, maybe even starting. I guess those days are long gone.

In Milicic's case it's special.
Remember the Pistons took the pick of the Grizzlies. The Pistons didn't need a player with an immediate impact, but a player that can bring them the best on long term. The Pistons roster was solid enough on short term.
When Elden Campbell will retire, there will be a spot for Milicic as he may have developped (I hope so)

by **Matthew** on Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:17 pm

The Pistons didn't need a player with an immediate impact, but a player that can bring them the best on long term.

I dont agree, think about it. The pistons are a good team now, but you dont improve now by drafting a player with potential do you? In the long run, Joe D may have drafted a better player. But Melo would be able to make this team better right now, not in3 or 4 years.
Also, carmelo is only what, 19? He has a world of potential still...

by **EGarrett** on Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:54 am

Actually...if you consider the Jermaine O'Neal case...Darko will be a free agent by the time he gets to be any good. By then the Pistons contending window may have closed and he'll leave. If they took Carmelo they might make a few finals or even win a title in that time...making him more likely to re-sign..

by **air gordon** on Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:20 am

Danny Ferry and Christian Laettner are examples of players who didn't become great players despite college experience

maybe its a coincidence, but they are both caucasion and went to duke. you can add hurley and parks to that list as well.

the high school to nba stars (kg, tmac, #8) started putting up consistent numbers in the their 3rd year. so kwame better start producing or else he'll find himself next to never nervous pervous on the bust list.

It's not necessarily about college experience, either. Parker was obviously NBA ready when he was drafted, as was Pau Gasol. They were drafted, showed they could play in the NBA and were given the opportunity

i thought parker was drafted by the spurs then was left to play in europe for a year before he came to the nba. also i thought there were a lot questions about gasol's game heading into his rookie campaign-his quickness, outside shot, strength. i doubt that anyone, besides the memphis organization, thought that he was going to do that well his first year

i don't like this drafting on potential thing either, especially in the top 5. i think KG's success started it all. a few years back, drafting high schoolers was the flavor of the month. now it's drafting euros who have been playing pro ball since 14. all have contributed to the lack of fundamentally sound players coming into the nba

YouTube · by **Andrew** on Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:53 am

i thought parker was drafted by the spurs then was left to play in europe for a year before he came to the nba.

Parker was drafted in 2001, and played in the 2001/2002 season. He started nearly every game he played in during his rookie year.

also i thought there were a lot questions about gasol's game heading into his rookie campaign-his quickness, outside shot, strength. i doubt that anyone, besides the memphis organization, thought that he was going to do that well his first year

You're probably right, but he obviously exceeded expectations with an impressive rookie year. The point is Memphis believed he could play and gave him an opportunity rather than keeping him on the bench for two years.

i don't like this drafting on potential thing either, especially in the top 5. i think KG's success started it all. a few years back, drafting high schoolers was the flavor of the month. now it's drafting euros who have been playing pro ball since 14. all have contributed to the lack of fundamentally sound players coming into the nba

The success of players such as KG, Kobe and T-Mac, and guess even Shawn Kemp in the 90s, has indeed made drafting raw players without college experience much more appealing. If Shawn Kemp was entering the NBA today out of Trinity Valley Junior College, he'd be a lottery pick, maybe top five. Back in 1989, the Sonics snared him with the 17th pick. Similarly, guys like Kwame might be top 20, but they wouldn't be top five or even top ten.

by **GloveGuy** on Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:24 am

There's too many great rookies in the league right now who aren't gonna get the PT that they deserve. Guys like Ndubi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang and many of the other European guys who aren't even on the roster yet and have been told to stay another year overseas. The draft clearly isn't the same thing that it was anymore. Had the four high schoolers(Ebi, Perkins, Outlaw, Lang) gone to college, they could've been lottery picks. Hell, if Ebi went to Arizona with Mustafa Shakur, I would've slated them down as Final Four contenders. They're so good but so raw. They've played against High Schoolers(or Europeans), and no one else. But instead of get on young developing teams, that will give them playing time or even a starting job, they're on playoff teams that don't have time to teach them what you need to learn in college or with older players. Darko's even younger than these guys. Maybe he could be the next Jermaine O'Neal, or maybe he'll be the next Sam Bowie. The Pistons aren't perfect and they needed a small forward, which is why they should've picked Carmelo who was ready to play right away and didn't need any teaching. If you go to college, you can get some teaching on the court and in the classroom, and also get some damn playing time.

by **air gordon** on Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:37 pm

Quote:
i thought parker was drafted by the spurs then was left to play in europe for a year before he came to the nba.

Parker was drafted in 2001, and played in the 2001/2002 season. He started nearly every game he played in during his rookie year.

oops hehe. my mistake...

There's too many great rookies in the league right now who aren't gonna get the PT that they deserve. Guys like Ndubi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang and many of the other European guys who aren't even on the roster yet and have been told to stay another year overseas

glove, get a grip on things here. james is overhyped but at least he dominated the competition. and melo lead his team to a college championship. but these other 'great' rooks you mention. doobi who? this guy is more of a track star then a basketball player. kendrick lang? both are thomas hamilton w/o college experience. these guys would just embarass themselves if they played against NBA talent

by **benji** on Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:02 am

Sigh...

Joe Dumars has created a grand experiment here. Everyone ever has gotten a star and tried to build around him. Dumars dumped his stars and built a team, that when a star comes in they will have to conform to the team.

Carmelo is a worse pick for the Pistons for a number reasons. One, they don't need him at all. They don't need a 10-15 point scorer, Corliss and Tayshuan can top that easily. If they got Carmelo and played him like everyone wants, they would have to cut down on time for two players who can create major matchup problems for their opponents. Two, he'd make the Pistons worse. Carmelo looks to be best where he is the go-to-guy and the major offensive player. He wouldn't be that in Detroit. Other players mentioned, Wade and Ford would both be behind Billups/Rip/Sura/Atkins. Silly Darko, the Pistons can mold into whatever they need him to be. His talent level is amazing, you can see watching him that he is just bursting with skills. He doesn't know how to use them all properly yet, but Larry Brown is a fantastic teacher. Larry Brown and crew will focus on what on developing what they want and need from him. Silly Darko doesn't need to score 20 a game to be worth the pick, the Pistons by luck of the draw got the chance to take him. Taking Carmelo would have forced a complete change of the building plan since Prince and Okur moved to the forefront of it. BTW, Larry Brown was so impressed by Tayshaun in their series he called him first thing after being hired to tell him to be ready for big minutes.

Silly Darko will get his chances, because despite popular belief...the Pistons are a 100 point threat. The Pistons were the 13th best offense in the league last season, and they're even better this year. Replacing Cliffy with Campbell and Okur almost doubles the point production there, replacing Curry with Prince does the same. Adding in Sura and a more forceful Billups will provide even more points. The "new rules" that will prevent manhandling of the cutters could net Rip an extra 5 points a game easily. He's already a consistant 20 point threat and if he boosts that to 25, watch out. Corliss will provide off the bench, and I hope everyone noticed Wallace has finally improved his offensive game. Combine that with the new pushing offense and the same top five defense (4th) and there should be plenty of garbage minutes for Silly Darko.

True, Silly Darko isn't ready yet. He's jarred to much by defenders playing up on him and he often gets stuck playing a zone on defense. But he appears to be learning very very quickly, he rarely makes the same mistake twice. I expect him to crack the rotation by the end of the year to help create even more matchup problems and give ol' Ben a rest.

The Pistons contending window isn't supposed to be closed in three years (since that's when everyone here has established is the development time for high skewlers). Okur, Wallace, Rip, Billups, Prince should all be at their best then.

Carmelo, after all, is playing much better than LeBron. But LeBron fits Cleveland better, just like Silly Darko fits Detroit better. Both Silly Darko and LeBron produced just about the same (within .3 of each other) in the preseason so I'm extending both of their grace periods.

As for ol' Kwame and Darius. From what I have seen of these two (two games and three games) Darius still doesn't get it...and Kwame finally is getting it. Kwame will probably never be a stud, but he'll be a solid starter. The difference between Kwame and Silly Darko is key. Kwame went to a horrid team, that got a lot of media attention but didn't get any better (they could've had Brand, Rip/Stack or Kidd/KG/Duncan/Kobe for godsakes), that he needed to play a big role on (because he was valued by someone moreso than Brand...of which I don't recall any criticism). Silly Darko is going to a contender (as much of a contender the East can provide) where he will have the opening to find his place.

EGarrett wrote:Actually...if you consider the Jermaine O'Neal case...Darko will be a free agent by the time he gets to be any good. By then the Pistons contending window may have closed and he'll leave. If they took Carmelo they might make a few finals or even win a title in that time...making him more likely to re-sign..

Now...Ernest...

First of all one thing.

EGarrett wrote:Actually...if you consider the Jermaine O'Neal case...Darko will be a free agent by the time he gets to be any good. By then the Pistons contending window may have closed and he'll leave. If they took Carmelo they might make a few finals or even win a title in that time...making him more likely to re-sign..

Sigh...

"[B]y the time [Silly Darko] gets to be any good." Going by what everyone says here, that's should be three years. Darko won't be a free agent then. He won't be a free agent for five years, and then he'll be a restricted free agent, so he can't leave if the Pistons want to keep him. And if the Pistons take Carmelo, they can't resign Silly Darko. Jermaine O'Neal resigned with the Pacers despite them not being a contender. He could've left for Duncan and a ring, but he didn't. So using the Jermaine O'Neal case is not a very good one. Especially since Jermaine signed a contract extension while in Portland and twiddling his thumbs on the bench.

Of course I consider this "three year" thing to be a myth. There is no evidence to show Kobe, McGrady, KG and Jermaine suddenly got better. They were all great players in terms of production, all of them definately starter level, from their rookie year in. They simply had to build the stamina, the ability to handle the NBA life and definately turn from athletic defenders to smart defenders. Then they got the minutes due to various circumstances and managed to put up better numbers, that weren't really far better but in line with standard development.

Of course, they could always regress like Darius Miles has, from a promising rookie year to the worst season of his career last year.

Oh, EG, this reminded me of you...the Pistons signed Tremaine Fowlkes

by **EGarrett** on Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:30 am

My issue with the Pistons is that in that article they're basically quoted as saying they don't really have a good backup SF. Meanwhile Darko Milicic hasn't made their rotation. Considering that the team is a step or two away from championship contention...it seems dumb of them to take Darko...who might be good later...over Carmelo...who is pretty good now and might be even better later.

I don't see any reason to believe that Darko is more malleable than Carmelo. Carmelo plays his way and Darko plays his. Larry Brown even said they were having problems because Darko "wants to be Toni Kukoc." He then added that they were trying to turn him into Bill Russell. If that's the case then we might see a situation similar to Jermaine O'Neal and Kwame Brown where a guy is forced to learn to play a completely different way.

I'm not saying that Darko doesn't have potential...he has loads of it. But it might be years before he realizes it. The Pistons were in a position to add someone who could fulfill their weaknesses right now...when they're in a position to be one of the top teams in the league. They're also taking more risks with the future then they are with Carmelo. Both people could leave for free agency as soon as they can...but with Carmelo the team would probably be more successful and he would be more likely to sign than Darko would be if the team didn't have the help he'd provide at full potential.

by **GloveGuy** on Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:50 pm

crawford4MIP4real wrote:the competition. and melo lead his team to a college championship. but these other 'great' rooks you mention. doobi who? this guy is more of a track star then a basketball player. kendrick lang? both are thomas hamilton w/o college experience. these guys would just embarass themselves if they played against NBA talent

If you followed the major levels of basketball, than you'd know who Ndubi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang, and Travis Outlaw are. They're guys who were on the McDonald's All-Star Teams along with Lebron James(who I would say hardly dominated that game) and a bunch of guys about to play D1 College ball. Ebi(T-Wolves) and Outlaw(Blazers) are two guys with unbelievable athleticism but unbelievably raw talent, that could've been polished in college, much like Darko's game could've been polished at a higher level that he previously played at, just not the NBA. Ebi was a guy who was once said to do exceptionally above average when defending Lebron.

by **air gordon** on Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:05 pm

gloveguy wrote: If you followed the major levels of basketball, than you'd know who Ndubi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang, and Travis Outlaw are. They're guys who were on the McDonald's All-Star Teams along with Lebron James(who I would say hardly dominated that game) and a bunch of guys about to play D1 College ball. Ebi(T-Wolves) and Outlaw(Blazers) are two guys with unbelievable athleticism but unbelievably raw talent, that could've been polished in college, much like Darko's game could've been polished at a higher level that he previously played at, just not the NBA. Ebi was a guy who was once said to do exceptionally above average when defending Lebron.

you missed the joke... doobie and those others were picked way after darko for a reason

Pistons not looking too smart...

Pistons not looking too smart...

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