Greatest Of The Three Point Era: Shooting Guard

[benji]

And here we go again, some notes again:
We're considering only 1977-78 forward. The best seven year stint of that player, in other words the "prime" of their career.

Should note, that you are not required to name the seven years for the player, it is merely a guideline to focus thoughts on the player at his best and to ignore things like legacy or entire careers.

And should also note that in instances regarding injuries, yes, go the extra year. For example, Grant Hill only plays SEVEN FULL SEASONS from 1995-2005 despite it being ten years. Also even if they play, like David Robinson in 1996-97, for a few games, you can skip over/include that season. If a player does something like play 17 games in one season and 55 games in another plus six full seasons, you can include both shortened seasons even if it's eight total seasons/years. It's not really fair to enforce seven calender years on the players.

Some ideas of how to do it:
List 1-10 with comments why for each player.
Or:
List 1-5 with comments for each player, and five honorable mentions with a brief comment on those as whole.
And/Or:
Rank the five best offensive players and five best defensive players. Or just with your top ten/five list the top offensive player and top defensive player.

Really no set format, there are plenty of ways of doing it.

The following players should be considered SG's:
Allen Iverson
Vince Carter
Joe Johnson
Walter Davis
Jason Terry
Andre Iguodala
Dale Ellis
Michael Finley
Reggie Theus
Jerry Stackhouse
Rolando Blackman

The following players should not:
Glen Rice
Tracy McGrady

Feel free to NOT list Michael Jordan at all. You should remember to start your numbering at 2 however, as if Jordan is not listed first, you will be banned.

[[Q]]

the other 9 in no particular order:
Kobe
Wade
Sidney Moncrief
Clyde The Glide
Iceman
Reggie
Jesus Shuttlesworth
Iverson
Mitch Richmond

i felt like putting joe johnson in there, but for some reason, i didnt think he fit with the rest of the guys on the list. he and richmond are similar and interchangable in my list. and forgive me if you covered this in the Small forward or point guard threads, but is Penny Hardaway a PG or SG? I thought you said SG for some reason, so if he is, he could be thrown in there instead of richmond.

going old-school to honor those that are pre-1977: Elgin Baylor, Pistol Pete, Jerry West

[benji]

Actually, I don't give a shit where Penny falls, he only has three great years unfortunately. But I put him in the PG list.

And Baylor may have been 6-5, but he was a forward.

And nothing about how I removed you from the copy-paste?

Too bad you mentioned Moncrief, thought I could sneak another 80s Bucks player in.

[[Q]]

And nothing about how I removed you from the copy-paste?

all hail Ben ruler of all the stats & tables

i honestly forget how good some of these guys were until i look at their numbers... especially KJ holy fuck

[The X]

Too bad you mentioned Moncrief, thought I could sneak another 80s Bucks player in.

Wasn't going to happen, he's definitely gonna be on my list

[NovU]

Feel free to NOT list Michael Jordan at all. You should remember to start your numbering at 2 however, as if Jordan is not listed first, you will be banned.

So many Kobe nut huggers would get banned if it was like before. Also I am wondering if Wade could top Kobe on anyone's list.

One of my favorite players, Jeff Hornacek, also interested to see if he'll ever be mentioned as one of honorables.

[[Q]]

I would give Wade a slight edge over Kobe. especially for his defensive stats.

[x-uNdErRaTeD-z]

Soon I will post a list up but this thread will be rather interesting with the shooting guards. Kobe vs Wade? Vs Iverson? Vs Drexler? Vs the rest? We need some debates in these threads let's go people!

[rise]

1.Jordan [86-92]
2.Bryant [02-08]
3.Wade [05-11 so far]
4.Iverson [99-06] added the extra year because AI had a couple partial seasons in there.
5.Gervin [77-83]
6.Carter [99-05]
7.Allen [01-07]
8.Miller [89-95]
9.Drexler [86-92]
10.Stackhouse [97-03]

[Oznogrd]

I would give Wade a slight edge over Kobe. especially for his defensive stats.

Does Wade have a ring for the thumb? Didnt think so

/debateover

/trolling.

[The X]

X's Top 10

1. Michael Jordan ('87-'93): Yep, I did it Pre-retirement MJ

2. Kobe Bryant ('03-'09): Kobe edges Wade due to durability and slightly better offensive rating and win share (Wade punished himself by that one terrible year the Heat had).

3. Dwayne Wade ('04-'11): Can’t drop him below here.

4. Clyde Drexler ('86-'92): I didn’t think he’d end up this high, but the numbers don’t lie.

5. Sidney Moncrief ('81-'87): Unfortunately Moncrief only had 7 injury free seasons. Should’ve been remembered as a great at the position but injuries and timing (landing with Bucks with C’s & 7ers in front of them, peaking as MJ entered the league). Probably would’ve had him above Drexler but only 6 good years and playoff performances not as good as Clyde’s.

6. Reggie Miller ('90-'96): I’ve really disappointed myself by putting Reggie this high Unfortunately his numbers are a lot better than I thought they were. His offensive playoff numbers are ridiculous, and for that, I put him this high. Shame his game wasn’t more rounded, but he was great at what he did.

7. George Gervin ('78-'84): I can’t drop the Iceman any further than this.

8. Ray Allen ('00-'06): Jesus was very solid throughout his career and had some great years leading the Bucks and Sonics.

9. Vince Carter ('00-'07): I didn’t think he’d be this low. His overall impact wasn’t as great as I thought it might be.

10. Allen Iverson ('98-'06): I never would’ve thought I’d have the Answer below Reggie and Allen, but such is the case. He missed enough games to warrant the 9 year era that I chose. His inefficiency offensively cost him probably about 5 spots. Was he an exciting player to watch? Yes. Would I have wanted to build a franchise around him? No.


Honorable mentions: I liked Mitch Richmond, Steve Smith, Eddie Jones, Michael Finley and Jeff Hornacek, but they all clearly didn’t make the cut. I’m glad Joe Dumars didn’t make my list

Hope I didn’t miss anyone, since I have the last couple of times

[adv1s5]

10. Allen Iverson ('98-'06): I never would’ve thought I’d have the Answer below Reggie and Allen, but such is the case. He missed enough games to warrant the 9 year era that I chose. His inefficiency offensively cost him probably about 5 spots. Was he an exciting player to watch? Yes. Would I have wanted to build a franchise around him? No.

What makes him any worse than Vince Carter?

[The X]

10. Allen Iverson ('98-'06): I never would’ve thought I’d have the Answer below Reggie and Allen, but such is the case. He missed enough games to warrant the 9 year era that I chose. His inefficiency offensively cost him probably about 5 spots. Was he an exciting player to watch? Yes. Would I have wanted to build a franchise around him? No.

What makes him any worse than Vince Carter?

I only put him one spot below. Flip them if you like. If I had Vince 3 or 4 spots higher then I would give answer. They are both much of a muchness to me.

[Andrew]

I started compiling this post back around the time I was having some issues with my Internet connection and it seemed every time I went to do a bit of research on Basketball Reference, I couldn't get online. Since those issues are long since resolved, I'd like to do my part in getting the ball rolling on these threads again.

1. Michael Jordan

No further comment is really required and I could get extremely long winded here anyway. However, since I've been naming the seven year span for all players so far, I'll nominate 1987-1993 for MJ. The man was pretty good when it came to basketball.

2. Kobe Bryant

I can't really put anyone else at number two. While I don't think that Kobe has surpassed Jordan or is as close to it as some might suggest, I would agree that he's come closer than anyone else in the current generation. For the seven year span, I'll say the 2001/2002 and 2002/2003 seasons along with 2005-2010, which includes his most impressive statistical performances and three of his championships, including two as The Man.

3. Dwyane Wade

Wade has to be right behind Kobe in third place, he's right up there in terms of his talent and he's posted some solid rebounding and assist numbers at the two guard spot along with being a great scorer. As I did with LeBron, I'll take 2005-2011 as the seven best seasons of his eight year career, even though he did miss over 30 games in 2007 and 2008.

4. Clyde Drexler

I believe the Glide is in the top five of this era, can't put him higher or lower than fourth. Between 1987 and 1992, he was good for better than 20 points with around 5-7 rebounds and assists per game for good measure. He took the Blazers to two NBA Finals during that span and in 1994/1995 - the seventh year I'm picking for him - he played a big part in the Rockets' second championship, averaging around 22, 6 and 5.

5. Ray Allen

I went back and forth on this one, I feel it's very close between Allen, Mitch Richmond and Reggie Miller.

In the end, I have to give it to Allen though because he's got better numbers across the board and while all three could knock down shots, Allen may just be the best pure shooter we've seen. The rest of his offensive game isn't too shabby, either. Best years were 2000-2003 and 2005-2008; I know that's eight seasons, but I wanted to include the championship year where he still had pretty good stats despite having to share the ball with Pierce and KG and with all the games he missed in 2007, it works out to be a little over seven years worth of games during those spans anyway.

6. Reggie Miller

Richmond provided a little more in terms of rebounding and assists, but Reggie was simply automatic shooting the ball and deadly in the clutch, so I'm giving him the nod for sixth place. Tough to pick out the seven year span as he was pretty consistent through the years but I'm going with 1990-1996 which includes his best scoring averages along with his career highs in assists and rebounding, a year in which he shot 50% from the field, 40% from downtown and 90% from the line and more than a couple of memorable and cold blooded clutch performances.

7. Mitch Richmond

He could flat out score the basketball but could also defend, find his teammates for a decent amount of assists for a player who was called upon to handle the scoring load and also rebounded fairly well for his position. Unfortunately he was stuck on some woeful teams during the 90s and that obviously held him back from enjoying much success in the postseason but even when he got there, he was lacking in outstanding individual performances. Without really being playoff tested, without being proven to be a player that a team can build around and have modest success or be a vital player on a championship team, like Ray Allen or Reggie Miller, I have to rank him slightly behind them. But again, it's close.

Best years would have to be 1991-1997.

8. Allen Iverson

More talented than perhaps a lot of people will admit, since the tendency is to focus on some of his less admirable qualities. Still, it's impressive how fearlessly he played despite his small stature and what he was able to accomplish. He had very respectable assist numbers considering he went back and forth between the guard spots at certain points of his career but it's his scoring that he'll be best remembered for; of course, dominating the ball and being a volume shooter certainly helped. I'd nominate 1999-2006 as his best seven years (actually eight, but that includes the lockout shortened '99 season and the 2004 season where he played in only 48 games).

9. Vince Carter

Glancing at his career stats, Carter's put up better numbers than I would've guessed. Scoring has always been his forte, particularly in acrobatic and spectacular fashion but he's a bit underrated as a passer and can defend well enough. His reputation for having a glass jaw is also overblown; he had a couple of injury plagued seasons but he's usually been good for 70+ games out of the 82 each year.

I don't know that he's ever been a true franchise player though, like a Michael Jordan or a Kobe Bryant, someone a successful team can be built around. I see him as the Dominique Wilkins of his generation; spectacular plays, incredible athleticism, plenty of talent and good numbers, but few tales of playoff heroics and modest team success. In all fairness, both could've had better teams around them but I believe Nique was too focused on scoring and Vince never had the right killer instinct. Both great players but they lose a few points for that.

Anyway, 2000-2007 is the span I'm picking. Eight seasons but with the games he missed, it adds up to just around seven seasons worth.

10. George Gervin/Sidney Moncrief

I know it's a bit of a cheat, but I felt I couldn't leave either of these players to an honourable mention so yes, my top ten includes eleven players.

The Iceman's best all around numbers came in the ABA but his best scoring days were in the NBA. From 1978 through 1984, he captured four scoring titles including three straight from '78-'80 and as we all know, he was the master of the fingerroll. He certainly took a lot of shots to score those points though and while he ranks second all-time in blocks amongst guards, I don't know that you'd call him a great defender. There aren't too many tales of clutch play and winning games either, it's usually all about the fingerroll and scoring battles. Still one of the all-time greats though.

Of all the players on the list, Michael Jordan is the only player I'd argue was perhaps a better defender than Moncrief. The Squid only had five seasons where his numbers were particularly outstanding, whereas everyone else has at least seven (and in some cases, pinning down the top seven is a tough decision). Still, through those five years (1982-1986) Moncrief was good for around 20 ppg, 5-7 boards and 4-5 assists for good measure, in addition to his outstanding defense. I'd probably add the 1981 and 1987 seasons to round out the seven years.

Honourable Mentions

Honourable mentions would include Joe Dumars, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Eddie Jones, Jeff Hornacek, Richard Hamilton, Jerry Stackhouse, Joe Johnson, Dale Ellis, Reggie Theus, Rolando Blackman, John Starks and Jason Terry.

[Mavs4Life]

1.Jordan [87-93]-(duh)
2.Bryant[01-08]-(still-really-good)
3.Wade[06-present]-(still-in-prime)
4.Drexler[86-92]-(also-had-good-years-with-Houston)
5.Miller[95-00]-(tough-to-put-over-Ray)
6.Allen[99-07]-(Jesus-was-always-powerful )
7.Gervin[77-84](My-dad's-idol)
8.Iverson[98-07](Why'd-he-have-to-go!)
9.Carter[00-04,05](Best-dunker-ever!)
10.Richmond(immediate-success)

HMs:
The-Jet-Terry
Joe-Dumars

[koberulz]

The Iceman's best all around numbers came in the NBA but his best scoring days were in the NBA.

What?

[shadowgrin]

Typo. One of it is ABA.

[Andrew]

Correct, I've just fixed it. A bit of a careless mistake on my part but surely not that difficult to work out.

[koberulz]

I figured that's what happened, but I'd no idea which was meant to be which.

[Andrew]

A quick glance at the stats would've answered that. Anyway, my mistake there. I was a bit surprised when I looked him up, I thought his ABA numbers would've been much gaudier, particularly his scoring average.

[NovU]

I think Kobe's getting too much love here. His efficiency has been average at best nearly all his career long. He's almost on Iverson's level in PER and much worse than Wade in WS/48, probably at Reggie's level with WS/48.

Not that anyone else really deserves to be in 2nd, but just saying since he's been praised a lot in this thread. And I think he's grossly overrated due to rings that his teammates won him. PPl comparing him to MJ/Bron just is silly.

[The X]

I think Kobe's getting too much love here. His efficiency has been average at best nearly all his career long. He's almost on Iverson's level in PER and much worse than Wade in WS/48, probably at Reggie's level with WS/48.

Not that anyone else really deserves to be in 2nd, but just saying since he's been praised a lot in this thread. And I think he's grossly overrated due to rings that his teammates won him. PPl comparing him to MJ/Bron just is silly.

To me it looks like people have only just put Kobe slightly ahead of Wade. I don't think anybody is silly enough to compare him to MJ, but I can understand the comparisons against Lebanon.

[Andrew]

I think Kobe's getting too much love here. His efficiency has been average at best nearly all his career long. He's almost on Iverson's level in PER and much worse than Wade in WS/48, probably at Reggie's level with WS/48.

Not that anyone else really deserves to be in 2nd, but just saying since he's been praised a lot in this thread. And I think he's grossly overrated due to rings that his teammates won him. PPl comparing him to MJ/Bron just is silly.

Might you just be the teeniest bit biased in that point of view?

As I said, I don't think the gap between MJ and Kobe is as close as a lot of people make it out to be, the same as this new point of view that LeBron has suddenly surpassed MJ. Likewise, I wouldn't say there's a huge gap between Kobe and Wade either; Wade seems to be most people's number three, mine included, so it's not like he isn't getting any respect in these lists.

Also, if we're going to discount Kobe's rings "that his teammates won him", then what do we make of any rings that Wade wins over the next couple of years? If we're going to set that standard, then we pretty much have to discount anything that Wade, LeBron and Bosh achieve henceforth.

[NovU]

Sorry, if my post sounded like it was directed to you guys. But wasn't. and I should rephrase perhaps... my post was more from my frustration cuz he is constantly regarded as the best all the time by so many and medias like it's granted.

[Mavs4Life]

In area of SGs, he's one of the best, but all-time he's farther down the list.