A summation of the current Kobe situation

There's three threads about Kobe Bryant at the moment, so rather than post this in each, I thought I'd create a fourth in an attempt to consolidate the three discussions. After all, they're all starting to run the same course.

I feel that this article provides a good summary of the situation and the correct attitude we should have towards it.
[url=http://espn.go.com/page2/s/jackson/030721.html]Who's the victim here?
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For the sake of discussion, I'll quote some points that stood out when I read it.

When you first hear that some woman has accused Kobe of sexual assault, your first thought is obviously that this must be some gold-digger or some woman who tried to "entrap" an NBA star. After all, we know Kobe, and this is totally out of character for him. These women are out there, and it's a dangerous world for these guys.


I'm sorry, but I must be living on a different planet here. Maybe I've just read too many tales of athletes' late-night activities off the police blotter, or maybe I'm too in touch with the "divine secrets" of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood.


Either way, when I hear that a professional athlete is being charged with rape, my first thought isn't that he's the victim. Nor do I immediately envision some sort of vexing vixen preying on poor unsuspecting millionaire athletes in a hotel lobby.


No, my first thought is to fear that a horrible crime has occurred ... and to hope that I'm wrong.

This is pretty much what I've been trying to say, though my posts are probably coming off as fairly anti-Kobe. Hopefully Kobe is not guilty. It's a terrible thing to have done, a terrible mistake for someone who has never before had a run-in with the law to make. But we shouldn't be labelling the alleged victim a gold digging, lying drug addict either.

And, yes, that's my first thought no matter how well I "know" the athlete -- whether that athlete is a "thug" like (fill-in-the-blank with your NBA bad boy of choice), or a "solid citizen" like Ray Allen or Kobe Bryant.


I certainly "know" Kobe Bryant better than most people on the street. I've interviewed him several times, including a brief one-on-one at last year's ESPY Awards. I've watched hundreds of his games and countless press conferences. I've seen more of his TV commercials than I care to count.


(I've also covered enough pro sporting events -- from the Super Bowl to the NBA Finals -- to know plenty about groupies and the world of temptations that confront professional athletes.)


And after all that, this is what I "know" about Kobe Bryant: He's eloquent and thoughtful. He gives good sound bites. He speaks Italian. He carries himself with class on and off the basketball court. And he's one of the best basketball players to ever lace up a pair of sneakers.

This is all true. Kobe is a good citizen. There are plenty of temptations that can lead sports stars into trouble. But...

After last Friday's mesmerizing news conference at the Staples Center, I also now "know" that Kobe cheated on his wife of two years, a woman who bore his first child a mere seven months ago.

And this is the point that I mention in pretty much every post. It gives merit to the alleged victim's claims - Kobe has admitted to adultery. Innocent people do not admit to things they did not do, we can pretty much take it as a fact that Kobe had sex with the alleged victim. No two ways about it, he has admitted to it. He claims it was consensual, she claims it was against her will.

The latter is yet to be proven, but the former is fact. And based upon that fact, it can be said that Kobe has done something wrong. It hasn't been proven that he has committed a crime, but he has done something that society considers to be morally wrong. And because that part of the story is true, the possibility exists that an act of sexual assault was committed.

Reading on:

Here's what I don't "know" about Kobe Bryant: I don't know how he treats his family when they're behind closed doors. I don't know what his sexual habits are. I don't know if he has a raging temper. I don't know what he might be capable of when no one is around.

I'll interject here with snippets of an article I read in the latest issue of Pro Basketball Today. The title sums it up: "Is it the person or the persona?" The premise of the article is that we don't really know professional athletes. We see their persona, but we don't know the person. We can't see everything in their private lives, so we shouldn't be quick to rush to any conclusions - including claiming their innocence. The final paragraph offers this conclusion:

We usually make two crucial mistakes of our own when judging athletes. We're too quick to crucify - and deify. Just remember this next time you catch yourself looking up to an athlete: You don't really know the person; you only know the persona"

The emphasis on the final sentence is mine. Just because the image conflicts with the allegations, it doesn't necessarily point to innocence.

Returning to the Page2 article:

Look around your office or your school. No matter how much you think know some of the people that you come in contact with every single day, you probably don't know the answers to any of the questions above.

Again, the idea that Kobe might have skeletons of his own. Just because we've never seen him lose his temper doesn't mean he never loses his temper or exhibits a different kind of behaviour away from the cameras and reporters. He may not - the suggestion may be laughable. But we don't know either way.

On condemning Kobe prematurely:

Now, I'm not saying Kobe is guilty. I have no idea what really happened on the night of June 30 at the Cordillera Lodge & Spa, and all Americans are innocent until proven guilty.


All Americans except for the alleged female victim in this case, that is.

Again, the emphasis is mine. In denying the possibility of Kobe being in the wrong, we are essentially condemning the alleged victim as the guilty party. Guilty of making a false claim of a serious offense, guilty of trying to exploit a beloved and talented athlete.

Since the news of Bryant's arrest broke two weeks ago, it seems like we've been searching for reasons to discredit this woman. She tried out for "American Idol" ... so she must be seeking fame and fortune. She went up to Bryant's room voluntarily ... so she was asking for it. She was an employee of the hotel ... so she was behaving unprofessionally. She allegedly overdosed on drugs two months ago ... so she must be unstable.

A couple of plausible accusations - she could very well be seeking fame and fortune. But even if she did go to Kobe's room voluntarily and her behaviour was unprofessional, does that excuse what Kobe did? Certainly he had a choice, he didn't have to have sex with her. Guilty or not guilty of rape, he still has to shoulder some responsibility of what happened.

Two final points from the Page2 article:

Rather than look for reasons to doubt her story, I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt until someone can prove she's lying -- the same benefit of the doubt so many people, men in particular, seem so eager to give Kobe.

I'll get back to that one.

If this case does indeed turn into a he-said, she-said, I'm not going to blindly assume everything he says is true. And I'd at least like to withhold my final judgment until I hear what she has to say.

As already discussed, this is probably what's going to happen. If it comes down to he-said, she said, Kobe will be considered the more credible party and the verdict will thus be in his favour. Consider the claim that she is unstable and has acted in a vindictive matter because she has a history of drug abuse and depression is also unsubstantiated. I think that has to be proven as much as it has to be proven that Kobe actually raped her.

As for the last sentence, it's the idea of a fair trial but from the other perspective. Naturally, Kobe is entitled to a fair trial, but then so is she. If we are to hear Kobe's defense, she must be given time to elaborate on her claim and provide evidence that supports her case, too. Neither deserve to be judged before this matter goes to trial.

Again I refer to an article from PBT, titled "Believe Everyone". As the title implies, the article suggests the best policy is to believe everyone's side of the story. In other words, the alleged victim is making a valid claim. Kobe is telling the truth. Give both parties the benefit of the doubt and await further developments. Consider everyone to be telling the truth and that the matter could go either way.

Two final points that I will quote from "Believe Everyone":

(Emphasis is mine)

Michael Jordan, in his prime, had a personality that was the smoothest butter in the refrigerator. Every kid in America wanted to be like Mike. Then we learned about Mike's gambling issues and Mike's affair with another woman and Mike's child out of wedlock. This behaviour didn't violate any laws. But it certainly put a few curds in the butter.

The same goes for Kobe Bryant's image no matter whether he's guilty or innocent of rape.

It should teach us a lesson. No matter how someone comes across on the playing field, or in sound bites, you don't ever really know hem unless you are in their immediate family or their immediate circle of friends

Again, not dismissing the matter due to Kobe's image, while at the same time not condemning him.

I guess the other issue, at least on these boards, is the idea of hating on Kobe. I stress that this is not any form of moderation of the discussion, it's simply my opinion as a member of the forum community. We all know that Kobe and the Lakers are often targets for bashing. It seems it's the way we sports fans are. But I don't think considering the possibility that Kobe may be guilty is necessarily hating.

In an attempt to take an objective view, guys like Shane and myself are often mistaken for bashing. I can't speak for Shane, but it's not my intention to condemn Kobe in any of these discussions. This is a serious matter that could have severe consequences, unprecedented in the history of the NBA.

I don't want Kobe to be sent to prison if he's innocent. But he's a citizen of the United States, so if he's found guilty of a federal offense he should be punished just as any other US citizen would be. The US legal system should not allow anyone to get away with a slap on the wrist just because of their wealth and stature.

I guess we'll just have to wait for more details.

Why don't you sticky this post then lock the other ones? That's the only way to really consolidate them.

As for Kobe...to be honest...I think I like him more now that he's not as much of a goody two-shoes. Other than that, I don't really care.

And let me edit this post to add...

As of this posting, the term "Kobe" has appeared in 260 topics and 1,626 posts in this forum.

By contrast the terms "Webber," "Nowitzki," "Dirk," "Garnett," and "KG" have appeared in a combined 250 topics and 1,049 posts...

The term "basketball" appears in 226 topics and 560 posts...

"Mcgrady," "Tracy," and "T-Mac" appear in 196 topics and 852 posts.

In another words...too much Kobe talk.

Last edited by EGarrett on Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

There's no reason to lock the other threads, also the discussion over there is already set and have much more information than what this reporter is saying.

If we are to hear Kobe's defense, she must be given time to elaborate on her claim and provide evidence that supports her case, too.

If she waits some more time, all the scratches "she never had" are going to disappear. Why don't they take her to a psychologist to treat her and find out if she really has any trauma from the incident?

Again I refer to an article from PBT, titled "Believe Everyone". As the title implies, the article suggests the best policy is to believe everyone's side of the story.

They can't believe both sides cause there's a contradiction.

Something happened that nite, has any of you had sex with a knee injured? I don't think there's a lot we can do if we are injured. I mean, your knees/legs/arms, wherever you have an injury, it would make it difficult for you to have regular sex. It might have happened that Kobe (already injured) couldn't do much and maybe had to use an extra effort to have sex with her, even when she had agreed (if she ever did), all I'm saying is that way the girl might believe he was being aggressive or forcing her.

There are no proofs that she didn't want to do it, a guy injured can't do much to catch a girl who doesn't want to do what was proposed. If she started running, I don't think Kobe (injured) would catch her. If she was being forced, her brain would send signals to her body telling her she had to kick him or hit him wherever Kobe was injured. There are a lot of facts that show the girl was there on her own and wanted some, she just caught Kobe in a bad situation and now is taking advantage of it. I'm not saying she's lying but at least there are proofs that she could have done something to avoid it.

This is not like "OK, let's have sex, then I'll complain", if she didn't want to be there, she could have done a lot to avoid the situations, to avoid the attack (if any), to avoid Kobe hurting her. Still I haven't seen a girl who doesn't know how to low blow an attacker.

Andrew, great post...the main problem with trying to debate anything on the forums here is that so many people present illogical arguements and stick with them even when proven wrong.

At first I was pretty sure Kobe didnt do it, but nobody will really know until the trial comes, all in all I think it is pretty sad no matter what the outcome because Kobes family wont be the same and neither will the alleged victim.

As of this posting, the term "Kobe" has appeared in 260 topics and 1,626 posts in this forum.

By contrast the terms "Webber," "Nowitzki," "Dirk," "Garnett," and "KG" have appeared in a combined 250 topics and 1,049 posts...

The term "basketball" appears in 226 topics and 560 posts...

"Mcgrady," "Tracy," and "T-Mac" appear in 196 topics and 852 posts.

In another words...too much Kobe talk.

You got alot of freetime, dog.

Something happened that nite, has any of you had sex with a knee injured? I don't think there's a lot we can do if we are injured. I mean, your knees/legs/arms, wherever you have an injury, it would make it difficult for you to have regular sex. It might have happened that Kobe (already injured) couldn't do much and maybe had to use an extra effort to have sex with her, even when she had agreed (if she ever did), all I'm saying is that way the girl might believe he was being aggressive or forcing her.

That is a very good point. Maybe kobe or his lawyer could think of it that way and use it as part of their defense. It could have happened that way or possibly she came up to his room and she wanted some but it didnt turn out as she expected. Plus if it was rape she would probably scream because kobes BODYGUARD was out infront of the door.

As of this posting, the term "Kobe" has appeared in 260 topics and 1,626 posts in this forum.

By contrast the terms "Webber," "Nowitzki," "Dirk," "Garnett," and "KG" have appeared in a combined 250 topics and 1,049 posts...

The term "basketball" appears in 226 topics and 560 posts...

"Mcgrady," "Tracy," and "T-Mac" appear in 196 topics and 852 posts.

In another words...too much Kobe talk.

You got alot of freetime, dog.

At least EG took some time to gather facts to support his point (which was a very good one), something that a lot of posters here do not do

I found this on the site of a local radio station's site that I check regularly. It's about Kobe's wife:

Kobe Bryant's Wife A Gold Digger?

Kobe Bryant is thanking his wife Vanessa for sticking by him in a BIG way. Reports say that on Monday, the couple went on a serious shopping spree, and he bought her an 8 carat purple diamond ring worth $4 million dollars! Of course, now all the tabloids are coming out with their version of “the marriage was already hanging by a thread” before he was accused of rape. According to tabloid reports, Vanessa is hated by both of Kobe’s parents and his teammates. She’s portrayed as a gold digger who’s only after his money. They also say she practically lives on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills, buying jewelry, furs, and designer dresses. And this story is just horrible. One quote that’s coming out about Vanessa, and I’m not even sure who said it but, “On September 11th, 2001, Vanessa was standing around with a bunch of friends, glued to the TV like everyone else. But all she could do was whine that this was going to hold up the delivery of her new Mercedes-Benz.”

They can't believe both sides cause there's a contradiction.

True, you cannot believe both sides without there being a contradiction. I think it's more a case of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. Believe that the alleged victim is making a genuine claim. Believe Kobe when he says he's innocent. No one has been proven right or wrong yet.

Something happened that nite, has any of you had sex with a knee injured? I don't think there's a lot we can do if we are injured. I mean, your knees/legs/arms, wherever you have an injury, it would make it difficult for you to have regular sex. It might have happened that Kobe (already injured) couldn't do much and maybe had to use an extra effort to have sex with her, even when she had agreed (if she ever did), all I'm saying is that way the girl might believe he was being aggressive or forcing her.

That may be the case. We know that they definitely had sex though.

I'm not 100% certain of this, but I think it's still possible for sexual assault to be committed even during consensual sex. If the sex was consensual but at any time she asked him to stop, or he forced her to do something she didn't want to do during sex, I believe it can be considered assault.

she just caught Kobe in a bad situation and now is taking advantage of it. I'm not saying she's lying but at least there are proofs that she could have done something to avoid it

But the fact remains he didn't have to go through with it. I don't think he can be excused of doing something morally wrong.

If she waits some more time, all the scratches "she never had" are going to disappear. Why don't they take her to a psychologist to treat her and find out if she really has any trauma from the incident?

They take pictures of the victim's injuries...they do it in car accidents for insurance purposes, and they definately do it for injuries sustained in a crime. As for the psychologist, I'm pretty sure that's standard procedure for rape cases.

Something happened that nite, has any of you had sex with a knee injured? I don't think there's a lot we can do if we are injured. I mean, your knees/legs/arms, wherever you have an injury, it would make it difficult for you to have regular sex. It might have happened that Kobe (already injured) couldn't do much and maybe had to use an extra effort to have sex with her, even when she had agreed (if she ever did), all I'm saying is that way the girl might believe he was being aggressive or forcing her.

If that's the case, then it's still rape. If she thought she was being forced, then it's rape - even if he isn't trying to hurt her or use force. It's like sexual harrassment...if it's considered harassment by the victim, then it is....it's similar with rape, although on a more serious level.

If she started running, I don't think Kobe (injured) would catch her. If she was being forced, her brain would send signals to her body telling her she had to kick him or hit him wherever Kobe was injured. There are a lot of facts that show the girl was there on her own and wanted some, she just caught Kobe in a bad situation and now is taking advantage of it. I'm not saying she's lying but at least there are proofs that she could have done something to avoid it.

I doubt it'd be hard for Kobe Bryant to tell his bodyguard to ignore any noises from the room and make sure no one leaves until he opens the door....also, I don't think it'd be very hard for a guy who's 6'8 to assault a girl under 6'0 tall, regardless of whether or not one of his knees is hurt. What kind of surgery was it exactly? If it was simply draining fluid or removing bone spurs, then it's not that serious of an operation and he'd be fine to walk without crutches.

This is not like "OK, let's have sex, then I'll complain", if she didn't want to be there, she could have done a lot to avoid the situations, to avoid the attack (if any), to avoid Kobe hurting her. Still I haven't seen a girl who doesn't know how to low blow an attacker.

If every girl knew how to defend themselves against rapists, then there would be no rapes. Kobe might have injuries from her putting up a fight, we don't know....if he does, that'd work against him....

I actually liked Kobe up till the whole adultery thing....like I was telling Limpdilznik (I think, maybe KQ?), I liked Jason Kidd up till the time he beat his wife; it's the same in this. I'm not a huge Kobe fan, but I respect his game and talent and have grown to enjoy watching him play...but now that he's at best cheated on his wife - and he has a child, no less - I've lost a lot of respect for him. However, I hope he doesn't go to jail, but the way this case looks, if I was a betting man, I'd bet against Kobe.

I'm just trying to present logical arguments for both sides, and since the Kobe side is continously ripping the alleged victim, I have to clarify a lot of things, for instance the injuries and what not. I'm no legal expert, but I know enough about law and the human body to make fairly educated statements on the subject.

I actually liked Kobe up till the whole adultery thing....like I was telling Limpdilznik (I think, maybe KQ?), I liked Jason Kidd up till the time he beat his wife; it's the same in this

yep that me. lucky me, this story he told me wasn't as long his recent posts

on a side note- to anyone that knows- what is the proper term for someone that commits adultery??

on a side note- to anyone that knows- what is the proper term for someone that commits adultery??

An adult?

The actual term is an adulterer.

It's like sexual harrassment...if it's considered harassment by the victim, then it is....it's similar with rape, although on a more serious level.

You don't go to jail for sexual harrassment, all you can do is sue a person for that. You ignored the point of Kobe being unable to have normal sex with an injury and maybe that's why he had to use an extra effort to position himself, that might get the girl to think he was pushing her to it, even when they agreed to do it.

Kobe admitted they had sex, the girl is saying she was raped, again have you ever had an injury? I've had minor injuries and I assure you there's not much you can do to catch anyone or to have sex with someone in that position, your body has been altered and it will take sometime to get back to normal.

What kind of surgery was it exactly? If it was simply draining fluid or removing bone spurs, then it's not that serious of an operation and he'd be fine to walk without crutches.

I don't think he was in some other place recovering from an "not so serious" injury when he could have been at home if he would be fine to walk without crutches like you said.

If every girl knew how to defend themselves against rapists, then there would be no rapes.

True, but happens that not every rapist has just come from a surgery. If every rapist were coming from a surgery, I don't think there were any rapes around, that might be a better statement.

I'm not a huge Kobe fan, but I respect his game and talent and have grown to enjoy watching him play...

Me too, I'm a Lakers fan but not a Kobe's fan. I do love every player who touches the floor as a Laker and that's the only thing that makes me recognize how good he is, but that has nothing to do with this. This is his personal life which would interfere with his career.

but now that he's at best cheated on his wife - and he has a child, no less - I've lost a lot of respect for him.

True, that's the worst thing I believe he did since I don't believe he truly raped anyone, cheating on his wife was a terrible thing. And he might not care what we think about cheating but we follow the sport and knowing he just got a baby with his wife, cheating on her makes him a true villain.

However, I hope he doesn't go to jail, but the way this case looks, if I was a betting man, I'd bet against Kobe.

If I was a betting man that maybe I am, I would pass it. Knowing the possibilities of winning or losing are pretty high for both, I prefer to pass it and watch what's going to happen. Even when I don't believe he did it, something made that girl get there and say that. But wait, I just watched Sport Center, they just said the girl was hospitalized last winter in mental health case, accuser. Plus she has tried suicide 2 times, I don't think that's a normal girl after all. At least I don't consider normal a girl who over doses herself and puts in danger her health trying to kill herself cause her boyfriend leaves her or has cheated on her, that's insane.

I'm no legal expert, but I know enough about law and the human body to make fairly educated statements on the subject.

I just bring facts that might have happened there and many of us are ignoring.

I know a lot of people here want to see Kobe in jail and I know why, but trying to bring facts just like "oh, have you ever been raped, that's the most horrible thing that can happen to anyone" is not helping. They just need to bring statements that show the possibilities of rape in the act, not like he forced her cause he said he didn't, however I'm not saying she's lying nor Kobe is, but I just bring facts that show why I believe he couldn't do much to rape her or what just might have happened there. Also, she would defend herself hitting Kobe in some part of his body, I just told you.

They take pictures of the victim's injuries...they do it in car accidents for insurance purposes, and they definately do it for injuries sustained in a crime.

If she showed evidences of herself being hurt, Kobe wouldn't be at home. If she shows evidences that she tried to defend herself, nobody would be arguing this matter. She doesn't have to wait for a trial to ask the police to check Kobe's body for scratches. She doesn't have to wait to show the police she was injured.

Also, as for the bodyguards, I read they were in the next room, not in front of the door. I don't think Kobe's is US President to have guys in front of his door the whole night.

Last edited by scubilete on Sat Jul 26, 2003 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

That may be the case. We know that they definitely had sex though.

I'm not 100% certain of this, but I think it's still possible for sexual assault to be committed even during consensual sex. If the sex was consensual but at any time she asked him to stop, or he forced her to do something she didn't want to do during sex, I believe it can be considered assault.

You see what i mean, this is what is so messed up with sexual laws these days.
You and a girl can fuck like maniacs, and if she gets hurt in anyway, and you disrespect her at some point.............THEN BLAM!!! she can hit you with rape and your in the shit.
Now this could be another scenario in this case, who knows?

on a side note- to anyone that knows- what is the proper term for someone that commits adultery??

I checked and there were two terms:

1) Professional Athlete

and...

2) "Da man"

Rumored: Kobe's accuser was hospitalized with Mental Health Problem

If this is true...could this be used against her in a court of Law?

You don't go to jail for sexual harrassment, all you can do is sue a person for that. You ignored the point of Kobe being unable to have normal sex with an injury and maybe that's why he had to use an extra effort to position himself, that might get the girl to think he was pushing her to it, even when they agreed to do it.

Actually, I think you can go to jail for sexual harassment if it's of a serious enough nature, say, bordering on sexual assualt.

I didn't ignore the point about the injury, I mentioned it and asked what kind of surgery he had. You're acting like he's in a wheelchair, but from what I saw he was walking fine with the press conferences and what not, and if it was that serious of a surgery, he'd still be recovering from it. I'll ask again, what kind of surgery did he have? Until we know the details about that, then we won't be able to determine if he could have sex with her, even though he obviously did.

Kobe admitted they had sex, the girl is saying she was raped, again have you ever had an injury? I've had minor injuries and I assure you there's not much you can do to catch anyone or to have sex with someone in that position, your body has been altered and it will take sometime to get back to normal.

I have bad knees and usually get them drained of fluid once a year (bursitis mixed with tendinitis), and I had sex after the surgery, usually within a week. Like I said, it was minor surgery, and it wasn't exaclty difficult to be on top of a girl. My knees were a bit sore, but not any sorer than they were before they were drained, and sex is fun, so of course I kept it going despite a little bit of pain...

I don't think he was in some other place recovering from an "not so serious" injury when he could have been at home if he would be fine to walk without crutches like you said.

He was staying in a hotel, not a hosital, so the surgery didn't require any sort of rehab or an overnight stay even, so honestly, you think that it was a serious surgery? I highly doubt it was since he played on his bad knee and waited until July when he was done in May with basketball for surgery...so again, based on this, and the fact that he had surgery hasn't even been mentioned as a defense, that it was NOT a serious surgery and that he could walk just fine. She could run away? Not if you have a guy who's 6'8 and over 200lbs holding you down...

True, but happens that not every rapist has just come from a surgery. If every rapist were coming from a surgery, I don't think there were any rapes around, that might be a better statement.

Again, I'm fairly sure it was a really minor surgery if he wasn't in a hospital recovering and because he waited so long. Who knows, maybe he slipped her a roofie, we don't know...but as for your "I had surgery and can't rape anyone" defense, what WAS the surgery? If he had a metal pin put in his knee, then yeah, I'd believe that he'd have trouble having sex, but if he just got fluid drained or bone spurs removed, he could walk just fine.

Me too, I'm a Lakers fan but not a Kobe's fan. I do love every player who touches the floor as a Laker and that's the only thing that makes me recognize how good he is, but that has nothing to do with this. This is his personal life which would interfere with his career.

This is a reference to the Kobe fans who are saying 'free kobe because he's a Laker and a good basketball player'....not so much to you, Scub.

But wait, I just watched Sport Center, they just said the girl was hospitalized last winter in mental health case, accuser. Plus she has tried suicide 2 times, I don't think that's a normal girl after all. At least I don't consider normal a girl who over doses herself and puts in danger her health trying to kill herself cause her boyfriend leaves her or has cheated on her, that's insane.

You all act like only sane people can be raped...

I just bring facts that might have happened there and many of us are ignoring.

What facts are you bringing? "If Kobe had knee surgery, then he couldn't have raped her." You didn't even say what kind of surgery it was, probably because you don't know because it's a non-factor in the case, therefore no one is talking about it.

*this might be out of order*
I just bring facts that show why I believe he couldn't do much to rape her or what just might have happened there.

You haven't brought any facts, just assumptions about a surgery you can't or won't clarify. Like I said, if Kobe couldn't have raped her because of his surgery, then the pro-Kobe press would be all over it. But they're not...so I'm counting out the surgery factor.

Also, she would defend herself hitting Kobe in some part of his body, I just told you.

Ever heard of shock? Or the date rape drug? Or the use of physical force to subdue someone to the point that they can't move? Apparently not...

If she showed evidences of herself being hurt, Kobe wouldn't be at home.

He posted bail...it's not like he can skip the country...he's Kobe Bryant...everyone knows him.

If she shows evidences that she tried to defend herself, nobody would be arguing this matter.

Um, but we don't know any details other than what the pro-Kobe media brings us....we don't know if there is or isn't evidence. And guess what? If there's evidence...then it's used in the trial....it's a criminal trial, it can't be settled out of court. The trial isn't for a while....so we won't know till then.

She doesn't have to wait for a trial to ask the police to check Kobe's body for scratches.

I'm sorry, but do you know nothing of legal processes? The police would examine Kobe when he was in their custody. They don't do it right before the trial because the injuries might be gone by then and they wouldn't be able to prepare any sort of case....sheesh

She doesn't have to wait to show the police she was injured.

And you know she didn't how...?

Also, as for the bodyguards, I read they were in the next room, not in front of the door. I don't think Kobe's is US President to have guys in front of his door the whole night.

You read they were in the next room....one of them may have been in front of the door for the ten minutes it probably took for the rape to occur....we don't know. Also, they're getting paid loads of money to protect a millionaire....of course they were in the next room.

you know whats funny? the trial hasnt even started yet and some people are already declaring that they absolutely KNOW that kobe is innocent.

i guess all it takes to be innocent is good publicity

heres what i know: i know that maybe kobe's innocent, and that maybe he isnt.

its heartbreaking that some people are already taking shots at the, read it, victim.

you know what? maybe she's lying....... but give her the courtesy you give kobe, maybe she isn't.

if there is even a chance (which there is) that he did what he did, people and the media should be comforting and defending her, and at the very least leaving her be, not attacking her!

but i guess she's just some bitch looking for money. kobe wouldnt do this. he went to private school. he's a great basketball player. he's never done anything bad before, so obviously that prevents him from ever doing anything bad. his wife forgives him, but wait...... didnt kobe's own parents dislike her because they though she just wanted his money? well anyway, that 4 million dollar ring's reeaaaaally nice......

i'm not attacking kobe, i'm just pointing out that if you slander half truths against the victim and contort them to make her look a liar, its only fair to point out and contort the half truths of kobe's defense...... his reputation..... and make him look the liar too.

we shouldnt be attacking the girl, and we shouldnt be defending kobe prematurely, but it seems people are finding more and more ways of doing exactly that, and its a shame.

i guess all it takes to be innocent is good publicity.

Can you all stop talking about what your sex is like while your injured.

Ever heard of shock? Or the date rape drug? Or the use of physical force to subdue someone to the point that they can't move? Apparently not...

If she had taken the date-rape drug she probably wouldnt be able to recall the incident.

I'm not trying to say kobes innocent even though i think he is but it just isnt kobe like. Also apparently he wanted sex so a man who wants sex can possibly do everything in his power.

I agree, Magius...

Can you all stop talking about what your sex is like while your injured.

I was asked about it...and I know first hand it can be done when the surgery isn't that serious...which is what I said about Kobe and which was questioned by Scub...it's not like I gave details

Also, this is a case about rape, so stuff involving sex is bound to come up. What I said wasn't lewd, nor was it random and off-base; it was a response that had to do with the discussion and it was PG, so don't worry about it. If it offended you, I'm sorry.

If she had taken the date-rape drug she probably wouldnt be able to recall the incident.

Yeah, she would. She'd know if she'd had sex or not and she'd know who she wsa with before she forgot everything....they found Kobe's semen, so it's pretty obvious who had sex with her. That being said, the use of the date rape drug is definately possible, and that's also part of physical evidence.

I'm not trying to say kobes innocent even though i think he is but it just isnt kobe like.

I don't think it's Kobe like, but then again, I don't KNOW what Kobe's like....

Hey Andrew Larry Bird for the Rockets?
I can see it now

PG-Kenny Smith
SG-Clyde drexler
SF-Larry Bird
PF-Robert Horry
C-(H)Akeem Olajuwon

I think that's the lineup I was using in NBA Live 95. I replaced Zan Tabak with Larry Bird. Since I was running a season section on my old site at the time (similar to the Franchise websites that are around these days), I got a pic of Larry Bird at a press conference and stuck a Rockets logo behind his head. The humour is in just how terrible the fake photo is.

EDIT: Sorry to digress from the topic, but as Old School Fool brought it up, I thought I'd briefly tell the story behind my avatar.

You're acting like he's in a wheelchair, but from what I saw he was walking fine with the press conferences and what not

True.

I'll ask again, what kind of surgery did he have?

A knee surgery.

Until we know the details about that, then we won't be able to determine if he could have sex with her, even though he obviously did.

True.

I have bad knees and usually get them drained of fluid once a year (bursitis mixed with tendinitis), and I had sex after the surgery, usually within a week.

you think that it was a serious surgery?

No

You all act like only sane people can be raped...

No, but you know well those who have gotten mental ill treatments don't get same credibilties as those who never have been treated for that or haven't had any illness related to it.

What facts are you bringing? "If Kobe had knee surgery, then he couldn't have raped her."

No, the fact was the situation why she might think that Kobe was using any kind of force against her body.

You didn't even say what kind of surgery it was, probably because you don't know because it's a non-factor in the case, therefore no one is talking about it.

You haven't brought any facts, just assumptions about a surgery you can't or won't clarify.

I will later,

Like I said, if Kobe couldn't have raped her because of his surgery, then the pro-Kobe press would be all over it. But they're not...so I'm counting out the surgery factor.

That's because the surgery was days after the incident,

That's because the surgery was days after the incident,

LOL, so he hadn't had the knee surgery yet?

I think the possibility remains that Kobe may not be guilty of rape, but he could still be guilty of sexual abuse. She may well have consented to sex, but she could have asked him to stop (and he didn't), or he might have demanded that she do something she didn't want to do. Still an offense, but not quite as serious as rape.

The Woman: KOBE LETS MAKE OUT!

Kobe: Nah...

So far i like this guy