Gary payton goingt to LA

on PTI, it was jsut announced

This is the link, http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0708/1578233.html

It's a verbal agreement, which doesn't guarantee it, but makes it very likely. Colin is happy. Colin would like it if LA got someone like PJ Brown since that many stars probably wouldn't work well.

As much as I'll love seeing GP get his ring, I'm gonna hate seeing him off the all-star team. I'm gonna hate seeing him play third or fourth option on this Laker team. He's better than this. I hope Kobe and Shaq can let their egos down, and give GP what he deserves. He deserves a ring, but he also deserves to be though of as one of the best PG's in the league. He's still gonna be up there with Jason Kidd, but his stats aren't gonna show anymore, and are gonna make people think less of his value. I know this for sure.

I wonder how Jason Kidd's gonna react to this. My guess is that it will increase the likeliness of him going to San Antonio...

This is great news for L.A. Payton gives them a top of the line point guard to get Shaq, Kobe and most likely Malone the ball. L.A should now look towards trading Fisher, Fox and/or Walker for some youth to come off the bench seen as none of them will get the amount of minutes they did last season. They only thing I see standing between at title for Payton and the Lakers is the Spurs with Kidd running the point.

Gloveguy, getting Rice few years ago didn't make anyone think Rice was worse than the superstar he was, even when Rice didn't get so many shots as he was supposed to. It was just that he was not the attention of the team but we (Lakers fans) did appreciate the Job he provided, the same would happen with Payton.

Also, Payton doesn't have to prove how good he is anymore, we know him, kids know him. Wasn't Payton in the first 50 on the most recent "75 greatest players ever" list according to some fools (including Kenny Smith & Peter Vecsey)?, I believe that's a good recognition, getting a ring wouldn't make him less than that.

Getting Payton to the Lakers: Shooting? Lakers need someone who can score when Kobe gets to the bench, sometimes Shaq is not enough, knowing all the restrictions the league is coming with to stop Shaq from scoring. Ball handling: If Shaq/Malone are supposed to score, Lakers need someone who knows how to get the ball to Shaq, Payton as well can have his shots, I do believe his points are going to decrease but it's better that way than getting to some place like Denver where he can score & score and wouldn't even make the Playoffs.

damn, I didn't want to see this happen. Now the Lakers are the big favorite to win next year with Shaq, Malone, fox/george, Kobe, and Payton. (Malone will likely play for them now)

Wasn't Payton in the first 50 on the most recent "75 greatest players ever" list according to some fools (including Kenny Smith & Peter Vecsey)?

If you're referring to Slam's list, then he was number 47. Part of Ben Osborne's short paragraph on him read...

The protuding jaw. The righty lay-ups from the left side of the lane. The flat-footed three pointers. The glare. The plas when he over-penetrates, gets trapped, but somehow whips a pass for a wide-open three. The techs. The legs spread, best example of in-your-shorts defense. For the greatness.

That's pretty good recognition there. He's proved enough, as long as he's not warming the bench a la Mitch Richmond then I'll be fine.

The Lakers really needed someone like Payton, he helps control games and distribute the ball accordingly. There are plenty of scoring chances on the Lakers. Remember they only have two players, they always combine for the most points in the NBA, adding 17-22 points from a point guard who will also add around 4 rebounds and 8-9 assists will lighten the load for the Lakers.

I really agree that anymore me guys like Karl Malone would be too much, though Malone does dish out many assists, he actually isn't much of a rebounder or defender anymore. I really think PJ Brown or someone like this is a better fit.

I wish the best to Payton there.

Kobe Bryant will most likely not be going jail, so whatever, he's still going to be Kobe.

Triangle offense...no true point guard....assists will go down significantly....

His points also won't be near 20, more like 12-15. But I think having a 15ppg, 7apg, and 5rpg is not much of a sacrifice when you're most likely gonna win a championship.

I really agree that anymore me guys like Karl Malone would be too much, though Malone does dish out many assists, he actually isn't much of a rebounder or defender anymore

Paul Pierce, please don't make empty claims. This past season he averaged 1.68 steals per game (11th in the league), better than Stockton, Payton, T-Mac, and Darrel Armstrong among others. He is still a great team defensive player and also a very good individual defender. I will concede that he isn't as good of a rebounder as he used to be and that's because he just doesn't have the lift in his legs that he used to.

Obviously great news for the Lakers, but they're still going to have to get rid of this "switch" mentality and treat their opponents seriously, else they'll be gone before the NBA Finals once again.

I predict 15-18 ppg, 3-6 rpg, 5-8 apg for the Glove.

Triangle offense...no true point guard....assists will go down significantly....

Triangle Offense... No true Center, Shaq points are always over 20 and is one of the best C in assists. No true Point Guard but the Shooting Guard averages almost 7 assts per game. Just cause Phil never had a true PG on his team doesn't mean having one terrific PG will be a disadvantage to the team or his assists would go down significantly, knowing Payton has never been the leader in assists. In case it does affect Payton's Asissts, all I would ask how significantly? Having Shaq on the team, is it possible not to average over 5/6 assists per game?. The Lakers main person to score is Shaq, he is (and is understood) the main guy & most dominant scoring force in the team, a good point guard who understands that, will get there and pass the ball to Shaq, and that's a foul or 2 points, even better if we get Malone who doesn't get as many offensive fouls as Shaq does.

The Lakers don't depend on the "Bulls" Triangle Offense, every time they are in a hurry, they go to Shaq which is not part of any Triangle Offense, all the Lakers need is a true Point Guard who knows how to get the ball to Shaq hands and Payton is perfect. Karl Malone is near breaking the scoring record cause he played with a PG who was getting the balls to his hands, that's what Payton is going to keep doing.

Obviously great news for the Lakers, but they're still going to have to get rid of this "switch" mentality and treat their opponents seriously, else they'll be gone before the NBA Finals once again.

That's something that makes us enjoying the game. As a Lakers fan, if we get those guys, I don't want the Lakers to sweep everyone and win every game. It will be really boring to have a team like that playing 82 games and playing like the Dream Team II. That's not convenient for the league.

Last edited by scubilete on Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Terrible....we are either gonna have another Portland or a team that will go 82-0 next year...only time with tell....but 3 superstars in the same lineup...having to share the points....i dunno how'd that work out...i doubt Phil can control 3 at once...he never had to before...(unless you count Paxson a superstar)

Portland had like 55 wins, what's bad about that? They had some bad luck in the playoffs.

Portland had great players overall, none of them were at the level of the 4 the Lakers are planning to have in next season's roster. Also if Portland couldn't get to the Finals, Shaq was the only reason . Not Kobe, not Phil, but Shaq.

i like this move, not only for payton and the lakers but also for T.J Ford. Payton's move will give him the starting pg position.
back to the lakers, imo i think it will work. Phil Jackson is a better coach than Mike Dunleavy was with the Blazers + the laker roster is alot more mature than that blazer team so i can see it been no different than when glen rice was there. the only problem i can see is who takes the game winning shots...lol but with the lineup they will have i cant see there been to many of thoses.

Scub, you obviously don't understand the triangle. In the actual offense there is NO POINT GUARD POSITION. While Derek Fisher may be a point guard, in the tirangle there is no point guard. It's built around two dominant players...you should know that by know...

Gary Payton's a point guard. In an offense where there is no point guard and different players bring it up court (Kobe brought the ball up most of the time and he's a shooting guard, Pippen in Chicago...Ron Harper started at point, but he was a shooting guard), a point guard's primary asset - ball handling and passing - is taken away - if he isn't one of the two dominant players. Payton may be the third option, but he'll more than likely be the fourth option AFTER Malone (if he signs). With that being said, he'll be relegated to the role of shooting open threes and cutting to the hoop, which is part of his game, but because he won't have the ball in his hands as much, his points and assists will be affected significantly.

The triangle is based on passing; who's been in LA longer, Kobe and Shaq or Payton and Malone? Hmm....now, who's used to running the triangle? Kobe and Shaq. Who are the main players and who will be the role players? Kobe/Shaq and Payton/Malone, respectively. Kobe averaged almost 7 assists per game last year; if anything, expect that number to go up rather than down and expect Payton to be a much more talented and consistant version of Derek Fisher....don't expect Phil to change his offense because of two superstar players....

This isn't NBA Live...getting four superstars on a team doesn't garuntee a championship and those four players won't get the same numbers as they did when they were apart...you guys think Payton and Malone's points will only drop a bit? Think again...

Also, you guys are saying it'll be a great defensive team...again, that's on paper. If a player isn't getting his touches on offense, he's more likely to play poor defense because his focus is more on the offensive end than the defensive end. Yes, Malone and Payton are great defensive players, but they're better offensive players...take an offensive player out of their game, they'll probably struggle in all facets of their game....except in this case, it's their own team taking them out of the offense...look at Portland

Shane, I do understand the Triangle Offense but there's something you didn't get. The Lakers don't run that Offense as Chicago used to. Derek Fisher is not a Point Guard who is going to give you over 6 assists even if he were playing with the Mavs.

When the Lakers have been looking for some points, the main option in Los Angeles has been Shaq and whoever (Fox, Horry, Shaw, Fisher) who has had assists is because they look for Shaq. They don't get around the perimeter to pass the ball and run the very called Triangle Offense. Shaq doesn't get over there to receive a pass like Longley/Cartwright used to in order to keep running the ball, that's something you as a no-Laker fan hasn't noticed yet.

Let's suppose the Lakers have those 4 now: I'm not saying that Malone is going to score 20 ppg, Payton is going to score 22 ppg, Kobe 30 ppg, while Shaq gets his 27 ppg. But notice this, Shaq plays in the post, as well as Malone does, someone has to get the ball to those guys and that one is Payton "Forget NBA Live or your Triangle Offense, this is Basketball" and everyone knows well Shaq is the main guy there even when Kobe scored & shot more than Shaq.

I don't know if you understand what an assist is but for you to think Payton assists numbers will drop dramatically (in the case of having Malone & Shaq there) just cause he's not the main player there or cause the Triangle Offense was not designed for a PG, that's simply your theory. You are comparing the Job done by Pippen with Kobe's, so who's Jordan on that team then? Shaq?, nope. Shaq in the Lakers is what Cartwright/Perdue/Longley were in Chicago, a Center... that's why this "Triangle Offense" is different to the very well called Bulls T-Offense.

I'm telling you this as a Laker Fan: what the game is about and what the options are whenever the Lakers need to score. You have been watching the Lakers game as an opponent fan or null, something you wouldn't mind if the Lakers need to score or what. Whenever the Lakers need to score, that's Shaq who gets the ball, there is no point guard in the Triangle Offense, but this is different trust me, Lakers don't run the triangle offense Chicago used to, "why?" cause Cartwright or Longley, even Perdue were not going to get the ball to shoot/dunk it like Shaq does, those Bulls Centers were floating over the free throw line trying to keep the ball rolling, not Shaq's/Lakers' case. Lakers (when they need to score) get guys taking the ball to Shaq and again who better to do it than "now" Payton, that's an assist.

When the main player is a Center, the ball goes to him, and nobody is better to do that than a true PG, no matter if that's a T-Offense or whatever other offense system you know. Fisher/Shaw are not that good as Payton passing the ball, that's why Shaq had so many turnovers, they would pass the ball in a position where Shaq (being so heavy) would have to jump or run to get it. Payton will get his assists, points, I don't argue that, they have to give up that and share 100 points per night but assists, Payton will get his no matter what your knowledge in the Triangle Offense says.

You guys are trying to compare this team if the Lakers get those 2 with Portland and that Portland team was not even near the team the Lakers are trying to put together. Portland had a lot of Stars, I agree, but none of them were at the level of these 4 guys.

Looking at the situation from the other side (as a non-laker fan), all I could say is that if they get together & stay healthy, the chances to get the championship are over the limit.

Last edited by scubilete on Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:09 am, edited 4 times in total.

triangle offense has brought 9 rings to phil and it may give him 10th ring next season!

This is nothing like Portland, don't know why people are comparing L.A to them. The Blazers have a bunch of inmature "kids". The Lakers now have arguably the best centre in NBA history, arguably the best power forward in history and 2 of the best players at their respective positions in the current era. A little different to what the Blazers have. All four of these guys are Finals veterans and have 10 appearences between them. I doubt that this team would blow up in the playoffs like Portland did. The triangle offence isn't going to be their undoing either.

Also, you guys are saying it'll be a great defensive team...again, that's on paper. If a player isn't getting his touches on offense, he's more likely to play poor defense because his focus is more on the offensive end than the defensive end. Yes, Malone and Payton are great defensive players, but they're better offensive players...take an offensive player out of their game, they'll probably struggle in all facets of their game....except in this case, it's their own team taking them out of the offense...look at Portland

I don't agree with your claim that if you, "...take an offensive player out of their game, they'll probably struggle in all facets of their game." I can't speak for Payton, but Malone, whom I've watched play hundreds of times, will not let a lack of shots deter his defense. Over the past two or three years I can't tell you how many times I've screamed at the television because Malone passes the ball too much to guys like Greg Ostertag and lets them go one on one while lingering on the perimeter. But through all of this, he still played great defense. I don't think he'll have many problems giving the ball up because he desperatly wants to win a championship. Also, I see Shaq's point production going up becuase teams won't be able to double him with the PF anymore because Malone would be open and he can knock down open jumpers or drive to the hoop. One thing I think is going to be humorous is going to be Devean George's reaction when Shaq, Kobe, and Payton are all screaming at him to pass the ball.

You're missing the point, period.

THE TRIANGLE HAS NO POINT GUARD. GARY PAYTON IS A POINT GUARD. THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE TAKES THE BALL OUT OF THE POINT GUARDS HANDS.

It DOES NOT matter what position the superstars are, regardless of what position, there is no point guard. Payton will not be the primary ball handler, Kobe Bryant will, simply because that's worked, save for last year - barely, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Malone's a great addition, but like I said, Howard can do roughly the same job for a lot longer....but he's not signing...so it doesn't matter...

Payton's too much for this team. He's too competitive, he likes to shoot, and he likes to have the ball in his hand. Because of the offense and the way things have been for the Lakers, he won't be the primary ball handler. Like someone said, the triangle's won Phil a ton of rings...why change it because you have four superstars? You'll cause tons of damage...and in the triangle, THERE IS NO POINT GUARD.

Payton will not be the primary ball handler and Kobe Bryant and Devean George will pass the ball to Shaq just as much as Payton will. Why? Because that's the way the goddamned offense works. Period.

This is nothing like Portland, don't know why people are comparing L.A to them. The Blazers have a bunch of inmature "kids". The Lakers now have arguably the best centre in NBA history, arguably the best power forward in history and 2 of the best players at their respective positions in the current era. A little different to what the Blazers have. All four of these guys are Finals veterans and have 10 appearences between them. I doubt that this team would blow up in the playoffs like Portland did. The triangle offence isn't going to be their undoing either.

I was talking about the extremely talented Portland team that was derailed by the Lakers...you know, the one with lots of talent along with vets?

I can't speak for Payton, but Malone, whom I've watched play hundreds of times, will not let a lack of shots deter his defense.

Um...he was the primary option...not the third option, the number 1 option...it's a bit different when you don't know if you're going to get your points, especially when you're going for the all time scoring title....

Also, I see Shaq's point production going up becuase teams won't be able to double him with the PF anymore because Malone would be open and he can knock down open jumpers or drive to the hoop.

I agree completely on this comment...but like I said, Juwan Howard would work as well...hell, an old Horace Grant and an old AC Green worked, why couldn't Juwan Howard? Malone will work fine, but it'd be smarter to go younger at the power forward position....

I think the Lakers offense is going to change, to open up some opportunities for Payton and Malone. Payton's going to bring the ball up the court. He's a superstar point guard. He's so much better at being a point guard that Derek Fisher. But the Lakers aren't constantly running the triangle, much like the Bulls weren't always running it on offense. Payton will take some load off of Kobe while Malone will take some load off of Shaq. This is what I think. How do you know what the Lakers are going to do on offense next year? They could change it to let Payton and Malone get their shots and get the ball. OR they could keep it the same and work it entirely around Shaq and Kobe. There might not be a poing guard in the triangle, but since when is Payton a PURE point guard. He's always had to be the number one option because he has always been the best offensive player, until now. We're just going to have to see how Shaq and Kobe handle their egos...