Exposers of Jordons Foolishness Page

[-Young Buck-]

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/ejf/indexf.html

Wow, i cant believe this page is still up. I remember this page way back before i even got a pc and used Webtv. Read and enjoy my friends.

[Its_asdf]

Ervin-Wan: I enjoyed it. It's certainly different. Do you know what they call a Quarter Pounder in France?

Julius: What?

Ervin-Wan: Le Royale with Cheese.

Julius: Why do they do that?

Ervin-Wan: The metric system.

Nice find. I was planning on lurking the NLSC for a while, but this looks like it will occupy a good deal time for me.

[-Young Buck-]

i was up last night past my bedtime just reading his responces to emails.

[benji]

The serious counterparts:
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm
http://wiltfan.tripod.com/

[Matthew]

I'll respond to the serious page:

Weakness for Jordan:"He couldn't turn the Bulls and Wizards around like others on this list turned their teams around. "

Strength for Oscar: "When he joined the Royals, he improved them 14 games. When he joined Milwaukee, he improved them 10 games (from 56 to 66 wins) "

But when Jordan joined the Wizards (at the age of 39) he improved them 18 games. 18 > 14.

When Jordan came back to the Bulls in 95, they had a 34-31 record. He helped them finish 47-35 (13-3 with Jordan). Then of course you have his first full season back and Chicago winning 72 games, but the bulls also added Rodman so that has to be taken into account.

When Jordan joined the Bulls as a rookie, he improved them 11 wins.

That has to be considered a clear double standard.

Also, he is entitled to his opinion. But I am entitled to mine:

Strengths for Wilt: "He could outmuscle and out jump any center in history"

That's impossible to say. He never played against the likes of Hakeem, David Robinson or Shaq. Against Kareem, Wilt struggled athletically (although Wilt was in his downside of his career, but if he uses Jordan's last few years against him in Washington Wilt should get no free pass)

"He is one of the two most athletic centers to play the game (Russell being the other)"

There has been no more athletic centre then David Robinson imo. Shaq and Hakeem are pretty damn athletic too. Wilt was a beast, but how can that be presented as a fact? It can't be.

"He was the greatest rebounder in history"
Give me Rodman. For the amount of rebounds Rodman got given the pace differential of the 90's compared to the 60's and 70's, Dennis is right there.

Oscars strengths: "He had no weakness and he thoroughly controlled the game."

Please. If Oscar controlling the game (with no weakness, mind you) meant him leading his team to an outstanding record of 418- 402 in Cincinnati (% 51), then what is Russell, Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan all doing behind him?

"He possessed supreme leadership on and off the court, where he served as the president of the players union for over 10 years."

What the hell, put Antonio Davis in as a top 10! Ewing top 5! What a joke.

Strengths for Bird: "The greatest clutch player since Jerry West"

No honest way to gauge this. Reggie, Jordan, Wade, Kobe, Russell, John Stockton, Isiah have all had huge moments in the clutch.

"His first year, he improved the Celtics 32 games in the win-loss. When he missed 76 games in the 1989 season, Boston replaced him with Reggie Lewis (who was 2nd in most improved player voting), yet the Celtics slipped from 57 wins to 40, despite having Lewis, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish on the roster."

While true, he is contradicting himself. If team record was an indicator, then how is he ahead of Jordan and Shaq? How is Oscar so high up with such a flimsy team record.

Weakness for Russell: "Lacked much in the way of offensive moves. He did average almost 19 per game one season, but he still had a raw game. He was fortunate to play on teams that had great scorers. If not, would he be like a better version of Dikembe Mutombo, who didn't win any titles and rarely made noise in the playoffs? He was also a bit small for a center (about 6'10", 220). No doubt he could beef up in todays game, and if Alonzo Morning can be a 6'10" center, then Russell could also, but would he be able to dominate against bigger men?"

But yet he doesn't acknowledge the size difference for Wilt and Oscar when rambling on about what they accomplished in the 60's and 70's.

To compare Russell to Dikembe is blasphemy.

And for the record, I'll put my top 7:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Russell

I don't argue Jordan over Magic or Russell

4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan

[Sauru]

great post matthew, only a couple arguements from me. i personally think wilt was one of the most athletic cents ever. i believe robinson could run the floor better or atleast as well as wilt but wilt was a world class athlete, atleast at the start of his career.


you say there is no way to compare clutch, to a point i guess thats true. i cant sit here and throw numbers or anything at you to back this up but i would give bird the ball over anyone with 1 shot to go.

pounds for pound you are probably right, rodman is the best rebounder ever. keep in mind he did all he rebounding vs bigger guys while wilt and russell did it vs smaller.


as for ther top 7 i still go with jordan bird and magic as the top 3 and despite my love for bird i cant put him first over jordan


overall great post

[Matthew]

Wilt was still a world class athlete even in his Laker days. But with Robinson, he had such remarkable footspeed. He was a very quick jumper and this also helped his shot blocking.

I can't honestly say he is a better athlete then Wilt, because I have seen so much more of Robinson. And I'm not going to read these tall stories about Wilt about how he could simply "jump from the foul line and drop the ball in the basket" like he is slam dunk ernest.

But I haven't seen a better athlete (dwight howard included) then David Robinson.

And Bird was a killer in the clutch. I'd still take Jordan with the final shot, but theres no shame in saying you'd take Bird, Kobe, Reggie etc

You listed your top 3. Who's your top 7? Can you order them?

[benji]

Statistically, Rodman is the greatest rebounder ever, and there is nobody even close over a career. And most single seasons.

For the amount of rebounds Rodman got given the pace differential of the 90's compared to the 60's and 70's

Oh dear, Matthew is talking about pace.

...EDIT: Robinson is basically a new age version of Wilt. You can find clips of Wilt younger on YouTube. If there is any strong argument on judden's site it is the one regarding the advances in sports medicine, and things like conditioning, etc.

[Matthew]

OMG WILT HIT A BANK SHOT!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q9GPibuasw4

[Sauru]

You listed your top 3. Who's your top 7? Can you order them?

1.jordan
2.3.bird/magic or magic/bird. i have been here too long to waste more time picking lol

4.Russell(talk about his lack of offense, but he never needed to be the scorer)
5.wilt(maybe so dominate cause of the era he played in but i put him 5)
6.kareem(amazing talent with the most unstopable shot ever)
7.stockton(i am sure to get flamed for this pick but i feel he is hands down the best pure point guard in history and would put him on any team i ever created. clutch player who cared more about leading a team than leading the league in points or hell, even shooting the ball period)


ok 7 is probably a big stretch and a fan boy pick so if its to be discounted i will go with dr. j

[Indy]

1.) Michael
2.) Magic
3.) Wilt
4.) Russell
5.) Bird
6.) Oscar
7.) Kareem

[TheMC5]

I'd take Wilt #1. His statistical feats are so mind-boggling, it's difficult to even appreciate fully. And I have no doubt that he'd have a few more rings if not going up against Russell and the Celtics so often.

[Indy]

I'd take Wilt #1. His statistical feats are so mind-boggling, it's difficult to even appreciate fully. And I have no doubt that he'd have a few more rings if not going up against Russell and the Celtics so often.

Wilt's numbers would never be that high in the modern NBA. The evolution of the big man in the 90s would have swallowed him up.

Not saying he wouldn't still be great, but he is far from the best ever.

[-Young Buck-]

I think Wilt and Russle are better than jordan. I watched jordan play through the later years of his career. He did get special treatment, but thats what star players get these days. But his was like "wade vs mavs finals series" treatment, which was above anyone elses special treatment. I remember jordan shoving mookie blaylock out of bounds and Mookie was called out of bounds, along with other things of this nature. I just never bought into the hype, i always saw it how it really was. I think he was one of the best players, but i still wouldnt consider him the best ever.

PS i also thought that espn greatest athelete of all time was bullshit.

[Matthew]

Haha, Jordan pushed Mookie Blaylock out of bounds. HE ISNT THE BEST NOW!!!!

That has to be the dumbest reasoning I've ever seen.

[Indy]

Haha, Jordan pushed Mookie Blaylock out of bounds. HE ISNT THE BEST NOW!!!!

That has to be the dumbest reasoning I've ever seen.

No kidding.

Anyone who doesn't consider MJ the best ever is just plain wrong. That Bulls team was a dynasty in a period of time when a dynasty seemed impossible. There were some great, great teams in the 90s that were turned away by Jordan year in and year out.

[Matthew]

And Kobe is the 2nd best of all time.

I'm just kidding.

As good as Jordan was though he wasn't perfect. That's why I won't argue with people who claim that Magic was better, or Russell.

11 rings is 11 rings regardless of the era. I know it's cliche but thinking about how he has more rings then fingers is something not even Jordan can approach.

[TheMC5]

I'd take Wilt #1. His statistical feats are so mind-boggling, it's difficult to even appreciate fully. And I have no doubt that he'd have a few more rings if not going up against Russell and the Celtics so often.

Wilt's numbers would never be that high in the modern NBA. The evolution of the big man in the 90s would have swallowed him up.

You're probably right about the numbers, but I'm not sure if it would have "swallowed him up". Bear in mind, Wilt would have benefited from the improved conditioning and performance-enhancing techniques as well.

But I find it kind of moot. Wilt played when he played, and he absolutely dominated. Consider Wayne Gretzky. I don't know if you know anything about hockey, but Gretzky has about a hall-of-fame career's worth of points ahead of the #2 all-time scorer in the NHL. His stats are Wilt-like, or Nolan Ryan-like. However, Gretzky played in the highest scoring era of hockey history, yet his achievements are never questioned. If he started his career within the last 10 years, there is no way Gretzky would ever get a 200-point season, or a 90-goal season, or a 2,800 point career. A few other people came close to those marks in the same era (except career points, that's untouchable), but only sporadically. Gretzky, like Wilt, was consistently head-and-shoulders above everyone else. Nowadays, no one has even scored 60 goals in a season since Lemieux in 96-97, I believe.

I just don't think it's fair to hold the era someone played in against them.

[The Other Kevin]

Young Buck is right, Jordan does get special treatment. When he was judge at the dunk contest last year, he got the loudest ovation. What the fuck is that? Bullshit like this just completely turs me off from the hype machine.

[-Young Buck-]

Haha, Jordan pushed Mookie Blaylock out of bounds. HE ISNT THE BEST NOW!!!!

That has to be the dumbest reasoning I've ever seen.

Not because of that, that was just an example of how Jordan would be able to get away with shit. Like offensive fouls, and get touch calls in his favor on the offensive side.

[Sauru]

speaking of hockey, would you call mario the second best player ever? imo he is

sorry for topic change just wondering since he brought up hockey

[Matthew]

Nobody cares about hockey. Sorry.

But if Wilt was truely that unstoppable, why didn't he win more then two rings? I know Boston was a juggernaut, but whats the definition of unstoppable? Did he not want to win? Of course he did. So he would of done everything within his power to win right? And yet he didn't, so maybe he was stoppable?

If Jordan or Russell or Magic only had two rings as well, then I guess Wilt's value goes right to the top.

[TheMC5]

Nobody cares about hockey. Sorry.

But if Wilt was truely that unstoppable, why didn't he win more then two rings? I know Boston was a juggernaut, but whats the definition of unstoppable? Did he not want to win? Of course he did. So he would of done everything within his power to win right? And yet he didn't, so maybe he was stoppable?

If Jordan or Russell or Magic only had two rings as well, then I guess Wilt's value goes right to the top.

Personally, I think winning a championship is a team achievement. Certainly, as part of the team, some of the blame goes to Wilt, but, and this is purely a subjective judgment call here, I feel that Wilt's individual dominance out does the blame he should receive for the losses. And it's not like his team's consistently sucked, they just ran into arguably the best sports team ever. Really, though, it's purely opinion based, but I feel my reasons for placing Wilt #1 are consistent and valid.


@ Sauru - You could definitely make the case for Mario. It's hard for me to pick between him, Orr, and if you include goalies, Patrick Roy. If pressed though, I think I'd say yes, Mario was the second best. But it is damn close. Gordie Howe deserves mention, too, and Mark Messier (even though I really hate Messier).

[Matthew]

Of course a championship is a team accomplishment. But Jordan, Russell, Magic etc were a part of that team.

Where would you rank Jordan if he had 2 rings? Or Russell?

[TheMC5]

Of course a championship is a team accomplishment. But Jordan, Russell, Magic etc were a part of that team.

Where would you rank Jordan if he had 2 rings? Or Russell?

I'm not sure I can accurately answer that. Russell, definitely not top 5, Jordan, probably still top 5. But I don't know. It involves a lot of guesswork I'm prepared to do right now.