Dream Team vs The best of today, who would win?

i'm sorry, but you havent convinced me, garnett is one of the most complete ever, but not the most.

one season. If a player were assigned the most complete ever for having a good season, then we would have around 60 most complete players ever.

kg has only had one truly complete season. this season, 23 ppg, 13 rpg, 6 apg around 1.4 spg, 1.6 bpg. and before that 4 seasons of 20ppg 11rpg and 5apg, and before 3 growing seasons. by your logic we can't judge players from one season, and yet kg has only had one extraordinaryily complete season. if we are judging completeness from overall averages let's compare cweb and kg

cweb: 22.2 ppg 10.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.7 bpg
kg: 19.4 ppg 10.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.7 bpg

look similar? and yet, no one is proclaiming cweb the most complete ever, so how can we justify proclaiming kg the most complete ever? i am not demeaning kg, cweb is great company, and even malone and kareem haveairly similar career number, but where is your proof that kg surpasses either? and as you said one good season doesnt proclaim completeness, and kgs best season wasnt even the greatest complete season ever.

see larry bird career statistics
24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 apg

wilt chamberlain career statistics
30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg

magic bird carrer statistics
19.5 ppg, 11.2 apg, 7.2 rpg

oscar roberston
25.7 ppg, 9.5 apg, 7.5 rpg

Yeah, You would finish putting Mark Madsen over KG as well, Madsen does everything well.

correction. duncan does everything great.

Do you think that being complete is to do things well?, lol. There's a bunch of guys who do everything well as well, so all of them are the most complete players?

Even if that was the right definition, Duncan needs to develop his vision to find open teammates, especially when we all know he is double teammed most of the times, meaning there's an open guy. His average of assists is low for a player who gets so many double teams & avg. of turnovers for the same reason is high. That's just to show you Duncan does almost everything well, but not everything

webster's definition of complete: to have no deficiency. also known as doing everything well. when someone asks you if you did well on your test, etc., it means did you do good from my perspective, so for clarification when i say to do something well i do not mean to be able to do it adequately but to be able to do it better than avearge. sorry for the misunderstanding.

as for the ducnan thing:

he's effective passing the ball, he gets steals, he can block shots, he can score, he takes as many rebs as the best. That's what made Olajuwon so great

hakeem olajuwan career statistics: 21.8ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 3 blocks per, 1.75 spg.

tim duncan carrer statistics: 23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.7 spg.

similar? what td lacks in steals he makes up for in rebounding points and assists. oh yeah and werent you saying something about how td's average of assists is low for a player who gets double teamed, etc. ,etc?? looks like keems a bit low too, eh? i'm not saying he wanst complete, but your argument is flawed.

kg career statistics: kg: 19.4 ppg 10.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.7 bpg

how does one define kg or the dream more "complete" than td over 1 and 0.7 spg advantage? i dont buy the steal advantage nonsense, sorry, td outsrips both these players in 4 out of 5 stats, that is what you call a numerical advantage. is john stockton more complete than kg because he averages 2.2 spg? is jason kidd? if you want to define a complete player as a player with better numbers in all 5 areas, by all mens see cweb statistics earlier. if you want to define it as good "all-around-numbers" see larry bird who by the way also has better shooting percentages and assist-to-turnover ratio which if we were doing a complete analysis of, erm, completeness, should be factored in as well. either way kg is oustripped.

if you dont agree with me, then so be it, to each his own, maybe we just have different definitions of compete, maybe we have *shock* different opinions, maybe its because we're different people.

p.s. please stop with the rolling eyes, it's infuriatingly annoying

hakeem olajuwan career statistics: 21.8ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 3 blocks per, 1.75 spg.

tim duncan carrer statistics: 23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.7 spg.

That's not a fair comparison. Hakeem played much longer than Duncan has and played very few minutes at the end of his career which decreased his stats. Try comparing their stats per 48 mins. or Hakeem's stats through his first six seasons.

hakeem olajuwan career statistics: 21.8ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 3 blocks per, 1.75 spg.

tim duncan carrer statistics: 23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg, 0.7 spg.

That's not a fair comparison. Hakeem played much longer than Duncan has and played very few minutes at the end of his career which decreased his stats. Try comparing their stats per 48 mins. or Hakeem's stats through his first six seasons.

yes, lets do that(hakeem's stats for first 6 seasons)
23.2 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 2.2 apg, 3.4 bpg, 2.0 spg

so with these stats, duncan leads in 3 out of 5 but in points, duncan leads but a mere 0.1 and that isn't much of an advantage. and hakeem beat duncan in blocks by 0.5 and steals by 1.3 and we all know half a block and a steal and a bit in averages is more of a difference than a 0.1 ppg advantage.

i dont like argue but tim duncan is better than hakeem ,and he is definetly better than KG.

i dont like argue but tim duncan is better than hakeem ,and he is definetly better than KG.

ohh no, not again

see larry bird career statistics
24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 apg

Where are the blocks & steals? same thing for all others you placed there.

correction. duncan does everything great.

Especially turnovers & not finding the open guy when he's double team,

similar? what td lacks in steals he makes up for in rebounding points and assists.

I believe you can read.

at this moment others can do 4 of those stats as good as he does but they would miss in one

that is what you call a numerical advantage.

KG has averaged over 5 assists in his last 4 seasons, TD playing the same position has averaged barely 3 assists & more turnovers. That's what I call a numerical advantage. They are similar in scoring since TD/Webber came to the league already with experience, you compared him with a guy coming from HS who didn't have any experience in his first year, taking his numbers as a fact knowing a rookie coming from HS is not the same than a rookie coming from college.

i dont buy the steal advantage nonsense, sorry, td outsrips both these players in 4 out of 5 stats

Duncan & KG do score, block, steal & rebounds, but KG does give more assists, how are you unable to see that?

is john stockton more complete than kg because he averages 2.2 spg?

, if stockton would have ever taken 10 rebs, averaged 20 ppg, and block at least 1 shot per game, then I would agree he is more complete as he can average over 5 assts as well.

if you want to define a complete player as a player with better numbers in all 5 areas, by all mens see cweb statistics earlier.

I thought you knew Webber was a senior coming from college. College players get more playing time in their first year as those already know the game, same for TD. HS get in the NBA to learn & get some experience. Even when I told you KG is a HS player, it looks like you don't believe it since you keep taking KG first year in your hands knowing that is the only year which would make his averages be lower than those you are comparing with.

oh yeah and werent you saying something about how td's average of assists is low for a player who gets double teamed, etc. ,etc?? looks like keems a bit low too, eh? i'm not saying he wanst complete, but your argument is flawed.

No, your argument is completely flawed, how many times do you think Hakeem got double team in a game?. If you've ever seen Olajuwon playing, what makes you think Olajuwon got as many double teams as TD gets?, lol.

if you dont agree with me, then so be it, to each his own, maybe we just have different definitions of compete, maybe we have *shock* different opinions, maybe its because we're different people.

We do have different opinions & different way to look things. When you mentioned Olajuwon, you needed to see him play in the 80s & 90s in order for you to try to diminish his stats & greatness.

Olajuwon last 2 years in Houston: he was injured & almost never got passes from Francis, then he was traded to the Raptors were he was a non-factor. Those are things you don't take as a fact when you should, you just want to compare everything you see in the total average column, however I saw the guy playing & I do know how great he was & I do consider him among the most complete players ever as I saw him few years consecutively among the best 10 in scoring, blocks, rebs, stls, plus the guy did something only 4 players (including him) in the history have done, a quadruple double.

p.s. please stop with the rolling eyes, it's infuriatingly annoying

, I guess there are some more around but if you try to take the facts I've explained to you, I believe I won't have to post those anymore.

That's not a fair comparison. Hakeem played much longer than Duncan has and played very few minutes at the end of his career which decreased his stats. Try comparing their stats per 48 mins.

See, there's someone who knows facts & how to compare the greatness of players.

i dont like argue but tim duncan is better than hakeem ,and he is definetly better than KG.

, I do consider Duncan a great player but don't like to say he's better than any hall of famer, that includes the 4th (if not the 3rd) greatest center ever born without doubt about it.

Knowing I'm not arguing whether or not TD is better than KG, all we are discussing who's more complete. TD might be a better choice to start a franchise as he's a winner, however KG is a little more of a complete player as he can do as good Duncan does but he has some other advantages in his game.

Last edited by scubilete on Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

scub i really like ur ending conclusion , it's true i believe, but also great players are usually measured with what they have won in their career, not how complete they are, so in that view td has the edge over kg, but me personally i cant choose

uh... how did this topic, go from the dream team vs the current best, to duncan vs kg, to duncan vs hakeem to duncan vs hakeem vs kg....

for once the topic doesnt go to kobe and u start to complain

for once the topic doesnt go to kobe and u start to complain

shut up...(they gonna talk about kobe now).


BUT ANYWAYS

Current best hands down... lol... hakeem the dream is way better than duncan and KG.... Oscar Robertson is the most complete player every, KG is up there. KG is more all-rounded game than duncan, cept duncan could beat KG in one-on-one, well actually maybe not cause KG is faster.... huh.... whatever..

uh... how did this topic, go from the dream team vs the current best, to duncan vs kg, to duncan vs hakeem to duncan vs hakeem vs kg....

I know the discussion is out of context even when the 2 players are part of the same team (current) but it was inevitable and most of you have voted for the Dream team cause the history they carry not cause they were at their best in the 92, I haven't even voted but posted what I think about today's players.

but also great players are usually measured with what they have won in their career, not how complete they are, so in that view td has the edge over kg, but me personally i cant choose

That's why I stated I'm not arguing who's better cause Duncan has his rings & is more dominant as his body is heavier.

i knew my arguments were flawed from the beginning but those damn rolling eyes!!!!! i had to at least try to respond.

i did watch hakeem play in his prime, i didnt say td was better, i was just comparing stats and maybe trying to point out that sometimes stats dont always translate how good or complete a player can be or is.... shawn bradley has a lot of blocks, is he an "intimidating" and "great" defender? iverson a lot of steals..... is he a great stopper? eric snow, on the other hand, is a great defender... how do we prove it? his steals arent extraordinary, nor his blocks. pj brown, great defender, average steals, average blocks. basically what i'm saying is i know hakeem's pass from the double didnt always result in assists because extra passes around the perimiter to the weak side would be made, couldnt it be possible that the same could be said of tim duncan? you make it sound as if passing from the post is a weakness of td, i think td's passing is just fine....... how else can someone like bruce bowen hit 7 3 pointers in one game?

that said, is kg more complete? i think the word or term i would use to describe him as is the most versatile. kg can probably guard the point regularly and the weaker centres maybe. he can defend against almost anybody, he can attack against almost anybody. kg is the most versatile player ever with the exception of maybe scottie pippen.

depending on how you define versatile than kg may be most complete to you, but i think upon hindsight, i judge "completeness" as dominance in every aspect of the game, statistically or otherwise. if you are complete, your completeness doesnt always translate into statistics and trophies, but wins i think a player is complete when things just happen when he's on the court, passes go to the right person, execution. it was like watching hakeem or magic or larry...... things just flowed. i just dont see that undefinable quality in kg, compared to when i watch(ed) those legends (save wilt, i didnt watch wilt ) , maybe he has it and i'm blind, and if i ever see it i will throw down the devils pride and profusely apologize for my ignorance. but for now kg, for me, is not most complete, that goes to the hakeems, the wilts, the larrys, the magics.

on the other hand, i see a hint of that quality in the younger tim duncan.... maybe it'll groiw. td seems to make the right decisions at the right times, he knows when to shoot and when to pass, where, how, everything, he takes all the intangibles and makes them tangible. this quality is almost unexplainabole, and the closest way of explaining it is: he seems to do what is right at the moment. i take that over steals any day.

p.s. my mind will be quite easily changed with a championship and a winning kg performance, twolves look almost as fun and exciting to watch as when steph was there.