NLSC Greatest of All-Time: #23

[Mandich]

-25th number of the many

-#22 was won by Elgin Baylor

-#23 is easy

-You can vote for players in any way you want: On-court impact, Off-court impact, championships etc.

Nominees:

1. LeBron James (2003-04 to 2009-10)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
24.8	6.3	6.2	.562	114	102	26.9	.224

* Number to number, LeBron doesn't stand a chance. LeBron won his ring wearing a different number, but we'll get to that later.

LeBron's prime started in Cleveland.

LeBron was amazing at Cleveland but his Cleveland resume simply can't be compared to that of Michael Jordan.


2. Michael Jordan (1984-85 to 2002-03)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
28.3	5.9	4.9	.569	118	103	27.9	.250

* Read what I wrote up.

Now let's make this interesting. Since both stats are not their true prime, let's just take their primes and compare those stats.

	Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
Michael Jordan	1986-87 to 1992-93	30.5	5.9	5.5	.590	121	103	30.4	.285
LeBron James	2007-08 to 2013-14	26.2	7.1	6.7	.606	120	101	30.1	.283

Boy oh boy. They are incredible. Now it could possibly be a discussion.

The thing is, even here you can see Jordan is slightly better. Slightly. Them you remember this guy went 6/6 in the Finals. LeBron went 2/6.

MJ led the league in PER 7 straight times. LeBron led it 6 straight years. LeBron had a PER higher than 30 four times, peaking at 31.7. That's crazy. Same goes with MJ. Higher than 30 four times, peaking at 31.7. They are perimeter players! That shouldn't be possible.

LeBron is probably a more versatile all-around player, but MJ is clearly the better scorer. MJ scored 30+ P/36 5 times in his career. LeBron has 0.

MJ had an Ortg 120 or higher 7 times during his career, peaking at 125. LeBron has the same peak, but just 4 seasons with an Ortg 120+.

Defensively, it's tight. MJ is the better perimeter defender, but LeBron is more versatile because his size and strength. He is a better defender in the post and can guard more positions than MJ. MJ's
perimeter defense is still great.

MJ had 8 years with a Ws/48 .250+, peaking at .321. He has 3 seasons with it over .300. LeBron has 5 seasons with his Ws/48 higher than .250 with two of them going higher than .300. His peak is .322.

The thing is, MJ is the best player of the 3pt era and LeBron is the best since him (sorry TD and Shaq), one went undefeated in the Finals and the other is labelled a loser. But stat's don't lie.

Also, two more things.

1. One of them retired during their prime, which could be viewed as both bad and good.
2. Since other players will probably be brought to the discussion, Kobe and Olajuwon can't be. They're great but not good enough.


Other Notable Player Shoutout

Mark Aguirre wore it for the Bad Boys and was relegated to a role player. Marcus Camby wore it for most of his career. He is pretty underrated when it comes to mentioning the best rebounders and defenders of the last decade or so. Cedric Ceballos was a scorer. He had a few really good seasons, but made the All-star team the least impressive year of his peak. He was also a solid rebounder and a cheating dunker. Draymond Green turned into one of the best defenders in the game today. He's also a good rebounder and passer. Did he have the best defensive year in the league? Yup. Did he win the DPOY ? Nope. Someone should really tell him he needs to be less obnoxious during some interviews. Lou Hudson was one of the first black college players and he had a good NBA career. A good and efficient scorer during his era. Kevin Martin peaked early at Sacramento, and boy was he a good scorer. 4 straight seasons with a .600+ TS%, scoring 20.6 P/36 on 118 Ortg. Rick Adelman knows how to use him. Jeff Mullins was a good 2 guard for the Warriors. He was good enough for 20/5.5/4.5 during his prime. Calvin Murphy was a laser free throw shooter and a solid point guard. He was a scorer and could distribute at a decent rate. Frank Ramsey is yet another great player of the Russell Celtics. Seriously, how many good teammates did he have ? Mitch Richmond wore it for a couple of years, including those when he was a member of Run TMC. A solid scoring guard. Wayne Tisdale was an okay scoring power forward during pretty much his whole career. Marcus Thornton wore it a couple of years. He is a similar player to Lou Williams, who also wore it.

The Watch: Anthony Davis is too good to be mentioned with the rest of the guys. He already had a 24/10/3 season. His Ortg was 122, his PER almost 31 ! Close to .600 TS%, ranked 7th in the league at real defensive plus minus, and was truly one of the best defenders in the league.

It's only his third year.

He's only 22.

[Kevin]

MJ all the way

[Andrew]

My vote goes to Michael Jordan. What an absolute shock, right?

Here's the thing though. That's not a knock on LeBron James, who, at this point in time, should be considered an all-time great. Would I rank him ahead of MJ, or indeed some of the other players in that best-of-the-best category? I would not, but it's getting to the stage where you can't leave him out of the top fifteen or so. In fact, anything less than top ten for LeBron is a bit sketchy.

I'd also say that it's no longer "blasphemy" to make those comparisons, or even to put together an argument that LeBron is the better player, or whatever. But these comments I sometimes see on social media and whatnot, that LeBron is "way better than Jordan", or "easily surpassed" him? No. Just no. In his league, an all-time great, possibly better? There's evidence to support an argument, though I'd personally disagree and believe the evidence still favours MJ at the end of the day. But to say that it's no contest, or that MJ has been left in the dust...nah.

Menopauss has already made the statistical comparisons, and that's ultimately the objective measure here. I realise that people are turning on the "narratives", and they are prone to embellishment and subjective opinion, after all. But in looking to describe the differences between Michael Jordan and LeBron James as we compare and contrast them, I'd sum it up like this: LeBron is superhuman, Jordan was supernatural.

LeBron's an impressive physical specimen; he's a beast, and incredibly talented to boot. It's easy to see why he excels at basketball. That doesn't make it any less impressive, but there's no real mystery to it. Jordan wasn't exactly small, and it's obvious that he had a lot of talent too. But he'd do things on the court that would leave you wondering...how did he do that? How does anyone do that? When LeBron drives the lane like a freight train, it's impressive, but you can explain it: he's incredibly athletic, and he's built like a football player. When MJ would elevate, see the defender coming, switch hands, change direction in mid-air, seemingly hang in the air while his defender landed, flip in a shot and make it all look graceful...yeah, that's just other-worldly.

Now, that doesn't make MJ better than LeBron. It's a different use of tremendous athleticism and coordination. But it is interesting how each of them inspires awe in a different way.

The other suggestions I see sometimes are about MJ not being able to hang in today's league. He'd get crossed up every time, I saw someone Tweet a couple of weeks ago. He'd have been swept if he were in LeBron's position this past season, another person opined. Well, What Ifs are always interesting, but can't really be proven one way or the other. However, I would suggest that if MJ was in his prime and faced the kind of Eastern Conference opponents that LeBron did this past season, and found himself in the NBA Finals, he'd have put on an incredible show himself. He'd probably have fewer rebounds and more points - he did average 41 ppg, 8.5 rpg, and 6.3 apg in the 1993 Finals - but his performance would be similarly impressive, I have to believe. Likewise, I would suggest that LeBron would do fine in the 80s and 90s, too. Like MJ, he might have trouble getting past the powerful teams of the 80s before help arrived, but he'd be similarly individually brilliant.

And so, we come to the arbitrary facts that people love to throw out. LeBron has been to the Finals five straight times, and is two for six overall. MJ twice made three consecutive trips to the Finals, and won every time. LeBron made it to the Finals with a weaker team than MJ, but in a weaker Eastern Conference than MJ ever played in. Neither won without an All-Star teammate (discounting the fact Pip didn't make the All-Star team in a couple of those championship years). LeBron came close to a championship as the last standing star on a team, but he also lost two Finals series with two All-Star calibre teammates by his side. LeBron has hit some milestones at a younger age, but he entered the league at 18. MJ is one of a handful of players to have a college championship, Olympic gold medal, and an NBA championship; he also won Player of the Year awards in college. Having not gone to college, LeBron obviously was in no position to achieve that. What if Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love didn't get injured? What if MJ didn't retire, and didn't break his foot in his second season? And on and on it goes.

At the end of the day, you're talking about two amazing players, two all-time greats, and for the purposes of this discussion, the best players to wear #23. Easily. However, putting all bias aside, I honestly believe that MJ still gets the nod as the superior player, and the best player to wear that number. Greatest #23 of all-time? Michael Jordan. All credit to LeBron that he's due, though.

[mp3]

Why can't I vote for Toney Douglas?? Lol

Who's this Michael Jordan Guy???

[stereoxide]

How can the GOAT not be the best player at his number? MJ all the way.

[NovU]

Because this is by jersey #, this easily is Jordan's thread over LeBron. He simply played longer while playing just as great basketball if not better wearing the number #23.

But none of this would matter when Hezonja the new great #23 is done with his career because why not?

[Lamrock]

Jordan.

[mp3]

Camby was also one of my favourite Knicks, loved that team with Spree and H20

[Sauru]

its my opinion that at least 3 people here are fucking idiots

[Kevin]

If only we knew who voted for him

[[Q]]

its my opinion that at least 3 people here are fucking idiots

Lol I was 1 of those idiots. I wanted to see what people would say

[Kevin]

Wait, you're not that type of guy that chooses the other option because he doesn't want to be labeled as "mainstream", right?

[Andrew]

For #33, we need Yinka Dare in the poll.

[Kenny]

That could be two votes for Marcus Camby if he was one of the poll options.

I guess Michael Jordan is okay though.

[Sauru]

its my opinion that at least 3 people here are fucking idiots

Lol I was 1 of those idiots. I wanted to see what people would say

you probably did it knowing i was going to be the guy to say something lol