NLSC Greatest of All-Time: #20

Can either Ginobili or Allen push The Glove from the #20 top spot ?

-22nd number of the many

-#19 was won by Willis Reed

-#20 has a few players worthy of the award

-You can vote for players in any way you want: On-court impact, Off-court impact, championships etc.

Nominees:

1. Ray Allen (2007-08 to 2011-12)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
16.9	3.4	2.8	.606	117	105	16.1	.163

* Allen was a third option with the Celtics. The Sonics barely made the Playoffs with him as a first option. And people like Kenny Smith say he is a better player than Reggie Miller. Listening to Kenny Smith makes me want to puke.

Allen was still a efficient scorer in his Boston days. His Ortg and TS% was always elite level and he helped the Celtics win a title.

The best the Celtics offense was during his time was 6th in 08/09. Allen was 3rd in TS% that year. He never cracked the top 5 in Ortg. And he wasn't that good of a defender.

2. Manu Ginobili (2002-03 to 2014-15)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
19.3	5.1	5.4	.586	114	100	21.1	.202

* You could easily make the case that Ginobili is a top 5 shooting guard of the three point era. How many other player can you think of that provide 20 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds while being higly efficient on offense, terrific on defense, and doing it year after year on championship teams?

The answer is 3. 4 if you count in Drexler.

Ginobili was a perfect fit for the Spurs. He could handle being the backup playmaker and was possibly the best clutch shot maker if you could take three steps. Ginobili has 7 seasons with a Ortg higher than 115, with the highest number being 125. He has 7 seasons with a TS% .590 or higher, with the highest number being .668 ! .668! He only played 34 games in that lockout shortened year, but that's still insane.

Ginobili had 9 seasons with a PER 20 or higher. 9 seasons with a Ws/48 .190 or higher. The best number ? .257.

Have you truly given Ginobili the recognition he deserved ? Have you ?

3. Allan Houston (1993-94 to 2004-05)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
18.5	3.1	2.5	.546	105	107	14.9	.094

* Houston is nowhere near as good as any of the guys on the list. He is included solely because of New York Knicks fans on the forum.

And that ridiculous head-butt dunk.

He was terrific from the line and actually did have some good years in the league, but was horribly overpaid in the early 2000s, like most of that Knicks roster.

4. Gary Payton (1992-93 to 2006-07)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
17.4	4.0	6.7	.531	112	105	19.5	.157

* Payton wasn't lucky.

Right after he truly hits his prime, the Sonics start to fall apart. Because it's so hard to build around a point guard, he has to go to Shaq in a desperate move to win a ring. He eventually wins one in Miami.

Payton was truly an amazing point guard. During his Seattle days, his team had some great years. During that period, they finished 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 8th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th, and 5th in offense(just the best years accounted).

He could score, distribute at a solid rate, defend and was extremely durable. Payton was a good scorer when he had help in those great Sonics teams.

How good was he on defense?

Let's ignore his DPOY because it's a media given award, and they shouldn't hold much weight when discussing players.

Some of the SuperSonics finishes in defense during his time include: 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 6th

But the best example is the 1996 NBA Playoffs.

I know losing your team is hard enough, and yet here I remind you of this series.

But you have to wonder how Seattle would’ve fared had Payton defended Jordan the entire series.

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games(Payton primary defender): 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

And yet Jordan said The Glove never bothered him in the series.

Other Notable Player Shoutout

Gene Banks was a really solid offensive forward during the 90s. Jon Barry was a good offensive player during his prime. He was a part of those great Kings teams. Doug Collins was a pretty good scorer during his NBA career with the 76ers. 19 points on 55 TS% for his career. LaPhonso Ellis had a subpar career for a 5th pick in the draft, but had one of the most amazing blocks in NBA history. Raymond Felton was never really a good starter, but is a well known player in the league. Donnie Freeman was good in the wrong league. Gordon Hayward looks to be one of the better small forwards in the NBA for years to come. Larry Hughes wasn't that good of a players, wasn't good at the dunk contest but led the league in steals while wearing the number. Maurice Lucas was a solid 20/10 forward in his prime. Was a part of that great TrailBlazers championship team. Jodie Meeks is a good offensive guard that can be very efficient. Steve Novak is a really good and underrated role player. Brent Price had a few good years in Washington. Campy Russell was a volume scoring forward, but wasn't really that good at it. Larry Siegfried was a part of those Russell Celtic teams and started after Bob Cousy. Phil Smith was a volume scorer for the 70s Warriors, winning a title in the progress. Eric Snow was a part of the AI Sixers. Damon Stoudemire was over hyped with the Raptors, winning the Rookie of the Year award. So Michael Ray Richardson had a few decent years in the league and was a good enough passer and was terrific at stealing the ball. He also got banned for always being high on cocaine and was delusional. He thinks he could've been as good as Magic Johnson. Tery Teagle was a volume scoring swingman during the 80s. Freeman Williams is one of the more explosive bench scorers you'll see. Led the league in USG% despite not starting a single game.

The Glove over Manu

Pete Myers. Replaced MJ in the 1994 season, Bulls only won two fewer games. 'Nuff said.

But yeah, The Glove.

Gary Payton over Manu.


Payton lobbing to Kemp is what the 90's were about.

Respect to Allan Houston though, solid career and also many great knick memories there.

I preferred Ray Allen when he was a Buck and Sonic rather than the 3rd wheel in Boston.

Although Manu is arguably the best South American player to play in the NBA, I have to give it to Payton.

Why do people think this is between Manu and Payton? People forgot Ray Allen was something special in his MIL and SEA days? Manu was always a 6th man and has benefited from playing on a dynasty Spurs team. I doubt he could have done what Ray did in his young career days.

I'd have gone to vote Payton but I am going with under appreciated Ray Allen.

Payton lobbing to Kemp is what the 90's were about.

Well, that and MJ & Pip. And Yinka Dare.

Although Manu is arguably the best South American player to play in the NBA

You know, that reminds me. A lot of people say that flopping is Manu's best trick. Personally, I think it's getting people to mistakenly believe that Argentina is in Europe.

Never mind about my Ray Allen comment. Didn't know he wore #20 only with the Celtics. You guys are right, it's Manu vs Payton. But it's gotta be Payton.

No love for Allan Houston. As Meno said though, he did have one of the more...interesting entries in the dunk contest.

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Hey I always have love and respect for Allan Houston he had one of the sweetest jumpshots I have ever seen and of course.... "once a knick"...

Do you remember when the media got on to the fact that Yinka hadn't had an assist all season so there was all this pressure for him to pass! RIP...

110 career games, four career assists. Still, when you're that good, do you really need to pass?