Two-time Sympathy MVP Steve Nash Retires

[Andrew]

Joe Johnson didn't play at Phoenix during Nash-MVP years.

His final year in Phoenix was actually Nash's first MVP year, for what it's worth.

[NovU]

He surely was one during his tenure, prior to the PG stampede, but all-time wise, he's not in my top 5.

That is actually a good topic for the thread imo.


Off the top of my head, I'd say clear betters were:

Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Magic Johnson
Chris Paul
Gary Payton

Right now I have him somewhere about Chauncey Billups's class.

[Mandich]

Well if we're going pre-3pt era I'd add Bob Cousy.

EDIT: Tiny Archibald also

Surprised you didn't bring up Isiah Thomas.

I'd put Chauncey ahead, he made every team better during his prime and was a constant in the conference finals.

I'd take Jason Kidd over Nash 10 times out of 10.

You could argue Kevin Johnson into the conversation. 20-10 on a good team that didn't win anything. i'd still put Nash over him.

EDIT 2: Where is the love for a guy like Tony Parker?

That makes him number 10(12 after Tiny Archibald and Tony Parker) in my opinion. But this lists never are logical as you (un)consciously put someone you prefer because of whatever reasons over someone who probably is better.

[NovU]

Isiah wasn't that good. He was a great marketing boy though. Tony Parker in all time list... you wanna avoid that.

Jason Kidd is close but not quite up to Nash in my list.

[Mandich]

Man if you say Isiah wasn't that good(best player on a top 10 all time team) and Nash is better than him, I suggest you re-check his career.

Tony Parker is the most underrated point guard of all time.

I can accept people putting Nash above Kidd, altough I don't agree with it.

[NovU]

I think we went over on topic of Isiah in the past in this forum. He's not really popular among number people.

benji's a Pistons ass licker but probably acknowledges it was Lamebeer and Radman that were truly the underrated superstars of the Bad Bois.

Tony Paker's far from underrated, but adequately rated. He doesn't stand out in one thing when it comes to all time discussion.

[Mandich]

Isiah is a top 5 point guard ever, you're going to have to do far more to prove otherwise.

Parker has 4 titles, a finals MVP, and while his 6 all star appearances and 4 All-NBA team selections might trail Nash, he had 7 per 36 20+ppg seasons and 5 7+ apg.

Parker was also pretty damn efficient for a point guard and basically everyone is a better defender than Nash

He's always played in a team system with 2 terrific players in Ginobili and Duncan, and various role players Pop loves to use. It's hard to get the stats in that system.

4 rings, finals mvp and really good numbers win it for me.

[NovU]

He's definitely not top 5. I don't know how you are claiming that, what is your base of argument? Or are you just arguing for argument sake.

You are quite a young fan, you can't possibly have watched him so we can rely either on STATs or Media rhetoric. Apparently you are relying on latter. As I said, stats beg to differ.
http://wagesofwins.com/2013/02/18/was-i ... ards-ever/
http://wagesofwins.com/2014/06/23/john- ... ream-team/
http://wagesofwins.com/2008/08/23/chaun ... ah-thomas/

He's a media's boy. But if you are arguing based on what you read and heard from mainstream media, we have no more to discuss. We take different stance in this issue, that's that.

He's always played in a team system with 2 terrific players in Ginobili and Duncan, and various role players Pop loves to use. It's hard to get the stats in that system.

What? There is already stats, on how much he contributed as a result of the system.

And it's not anything historically significant. He's solid, but nothing really stands out to put him on top of other elites. It'd be a joke.

[Mandich]

I think reffering to my age shouldn't really matter as there are plenty of youtube playoff series available (I don't watch historic regular season games for obvious reasons). Yes, you tend to appreaciate certain skillsets as you get older, but I think it's safe to say I'm not as dumb I was before.

Magic is a media boy. He somehow lost 4 NBA finals and everyone is calling him a terrific winner.

Nash was more efficient on offense, Thomas was shot happy a lot of times, with Nash obviously beign the better shooter. As a scorer, Isiah was better in terms of he had a wider array of offensive moves (primarily focusing on isolation moments as it is unfair to compare their percentages given the fact how clogged the lanes were back there and what styles of play both players were a part off. Then there's handchecking, and Isiah was small.)

I know Isiah gets a lot of hype for being the star on the bad boys, and you could argue that some point guards of the era could've done as good with the Pistons as he did.

The fact is: watch the games. As childlish as it sounds, I did watch most of their prime -time series, even the ones they lost. Most of the times he went through. He WAS a constant threat and controled the tempo of the game to his teams advantage (like Paul).

There is only as far as stats can go to convince a person. When there is a situation like this (lets be fair to each other and call it a tie because we can obviously bring up things both players excell at), only thing that is left is the game itself. And that's too subjective to be objective.

Isiah has a history of taking control off playoff games(not saying Nash doesn't) as he has a great feel when to take over games scoring wise(although not everytime), same like Paul nowadays. He has 2 rings, an MVP, a finals MVP. He was also a terrific passer, more all-star appearances etc etc. He had 4 straight 20-10 years.

If you're not sold on the whole offense thing(you couldn't probably make a rational argument of comparing the two as equals on offense, probably), let's take a look at defense.

I thought so. he was miles in front of Nash, and I agree, he had the confidence and the green light to do so because of the bad boys behind them. Nash can't play defense in whatever situation you put him, and he didn't have the bad boys. But that's the thing. Isiah WAS the undeniable leader of one of the best teams of all time. He has the rings and the MVPs to rightfully be in front of Nash on any list.

My point is we're obviously not going to agree on this one. Let's be normal for once and not turn this into yet another idiotic argument we'll both regret even having. You say Nash is better, I respect it, I don't agree with it.

OFF-NOTE: Weren't you praising Kidd a couple of years back saying he's the best overall point guard next to Magic Johnson ?

EDIT: Is Nash in your top 5? If not, then we he's not Elite by my terms(tops 5 all-time).

[NovU]

Nash's not my top 5 but is above Isiah and is in Billup's territory.

Two things, don't take this wrong way but I dealt with this situation 100s of times.

ONE: Don't come to me saying "WATCH THE GAME" argument. That's just silly. Can't confirm if it's lie or not but it's just stupid. It's usually dumb ass people with no real argument "OH I WATCH MORE GAMES THAN U so STFU". Trust me, I wasted a lot of times watching this game of basketball and I still do. But I still hate that fucking stupid argument from people who watches highlights merely. I am sure you'd know this well if you ever had discussion with Kobe fans back in the days. But you are starting to sound one now with "RING" "MVP" arguments. The links that I gave you above has already debunked why those arguments don't really work as he wasn't really that good. I am not going to get into it, cuz it's mostly baseless argument like what if said "MVP twice! over KOBE SHAQ WADE etc".

TWO: What I have issues with your argument is how you say "stats can go as far as" BS but still have audacity to use the MOST BASIC stats 20-10 to your liking as if it's an end-it-all argument. Do you seriously expect me to be convinced, I find this offensive and stupid, don't insult my intellectual. And you make BIG baseless claims like "Undeniable Leader" and "GOOD PASSER" while stats say otherwise and falls short on alltime standard.


That said, I am actually not interested in this discussion. I've read too many articles on Isiah and read all arguments from all side that this is pointless. You do research and decide for yourself.

OFF-NOTE: Weren't you praising Kidd a couple of years back saying he's the best overall point guard next to Magic Johnson ?

Nope. I never said that.

[Mandich]

It's moments like this I realize why I never tried hard at being nice to you as you really tend to be arrogant and fail to comprehend simple conversational points while positioning yourself as the smart one, and yet you're the one whose intellect is being "insulted".

Obviously I already am stupid by even replying to your post, but I won't continue since these stuff really don't matter to me anymore.

Kidd's been one of the best all around point guard, probably only next to Magic Johnson.

Actually you did, and I knew you did, just wanted to see your reaction. check the all time PG thread.

[NovU]

Haha, can't believe you went thru trouble digging up ancient thread.

Key word "All Around" as in a-to-z stat filler kinda implies triple-double threat with ability to play multiple position. Doesn't mean best point guard only to MJ. Don't take word out of context buddy.

[Mandich]

You can't seriously think I was reffering as him being the 2nd best point guard off all-time.

Also, if I wasn't clear enough in my previous post, I edited certain sentences to help you understand my point of view (my dislexing writting ends up in me editing every post because some idiots tend to bring that up in arguments)

Enough from me.

Nash is not top 5, hence he is not elite. I've proven my point.

[NovU]

You can't seriously think I was reffering as him being the 2nd best point guard off all-time.

Are you nuts? What you were referring to is NOT an issue of our topic. You said I said "best overall", a bit fat lie. LoL

Next time, try not to manipulate what I said "all around" is not "overall". Don't take word out of context again buddy.

[Mandich]

That was pointed to you taking Nash over Kidd, but clearly I'd have to draw and point out each word so you could be close to understanding, without actually doing so.

[NovU]

Think man, THINK. Just because I said I would pick Nash over Kidd, it DOES NOT mean it contradicts what I said that Kidd is "best all around" possibly next to Magic in 3pt era. Please... gaawww.

[Mandich]

Deleting your posts and having a rage episode isn't goign to make you look any smarter.

I figured it out a bit too late.

Nov (Yo)U.

[Mandich]

Just came across this article and saw how lucky of a pro career Thomas had.

Can't believe he tricked everyone in thinking he deserved to be on the Dream Team and that he is an all-time great.

I had him in my top 10. Not anymore.

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/02/18/was-i ... ards-ever/