NLSC Greatest of All-Time: #21

Is there anyone that can take the title form either Duncan or Garnett ?

-22nd number of the many

-#20 was won by Gary Payton

-#21 is possibly the most difficult one yet

-You can vote for players in any way you want: On-court impact, Off-court impact, championships etc.

Nominees:

1. Dave Bing (1966-67 to 1976-77)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
20.3	3.8	6.0	.501	Nr	Nr	17.9	.103

* Dave Bing didn't have much success in Detroit.

He only made the Playoffs three times in 9 years, and didn't make it out of the first round.

And he had Bob Lanier.

Bing was a big scorer in his first 5 years in Detroit, scoring more than 20 points in each one. Later his scoring numbers took a dip, but he didn't up his assists. He also rebounded less.

Bing had a few efficient years at shooting the basketball, but wasn't the most efficient guy you'll find.

All in all, he probably has no chance at the title.

2. Tim Duncan (1997-98 to 2014-15)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
20.4	11.5	3.2	.551	110	96	24.5	.211

* Tim Duncan is the ultimate power forward in league history.

But wait, he played center since 2006. How is he a power forward?

He was a power forward in his prime. That's good enough to sell it to me.

His 03/04 Drtg is 6th best in league history. What a year for defense that was.

In his prime, Duncan was simply amazing. Here is a guy that's going to post 22/11/3.5/2.5 while being efficient on offense and elite on defense. His defense was amazing.

He led the league in Drtg 4 times. He led the league in DWS 5 times. Once in OWS and twice in WS.

He also has 5 titles. And is still performing at a high level, despite being 50.

3. Kevin Garnett (1995-96 to 2006-07)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
19.3	10.7	4.2	.543	110	100	23.8	.187

* An example how unfair life can be.

Garnett is a guy that spent his prime playing for horrible teams, and above him is Duncan who's one of the luckiest stars to play the game.

In his prime, Garnett was a more all-around player than Duncan and was just as good on offense as he was. But Duncan was a better defender.

That being said, prime Garnett(03-05) was scary:

21.6/12.7/5 on 114 Ortg/95 Drtg, 28.8 PER, .260 Ws/48, while leading the league in BPM and VORP (shitty teammates)

1st tier All-time power forward.

4. World B. Free (1975-76 to 1987-88)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
24.0	3.3	4.4	.527	110	109	18.8	.121

* So I'm going to cheat a little bit here. I'm going to include his total of 3 seasons of not wearing the number, because he has no chance of winning this.

How do you describe him ? Allen Iverson on offense, James Harden on defense.

But he is really that similar to Iverson. Amongst the league leaders in USG%, 20-ish PER, TS% not really good. Ws/48 not that good, Ortg on par with Denver Iverson, but World B. Free was not as good.

And that haircut.

5. Bill Sharman (1951-52 to 1960-61)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
20.3	4.4	3.4	.498	Nr	Nr	18.3	.178

* Sharman was yet another player that profited by playing alongside Bill Russell.

He was good before him, though.

A good, scorer, excellent free throw shooter, helped the team and wasn't a horrible 2nd playmaker choice.

6. Dominique Wilkins (1982-83 to 1998-99)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
25.2	6.8	2.5	.536	112	108	21.6	.148

* I'm including his Boston season where he wore #12.

The definition of a ballhog.

Don't get me wrong, I love Dominique, but he was a ballhog. High USG%, jacks up loads of shots(top 15 NBA history) and has a 12% AST% for his career.

In his prime, he was a really good offensive player and somewhat decent at defense.

He was good enough for around 28 point per game on 110+ Ortg and ok TS%. He did get to the line a lot and shot a decent percentage.

Great dunker, great dunk contest with Jordan, great battles with Bird, and probably the only player that can challenge Duncan and Garnett.

Other Notable Player Shoutout

Quinn Buckner was a Rondo type backup point guard for the Bucks of the late 70s. Good raw stats but not really helping the team. Wilson Chandler continues to be nothing more than a role player but keeps getting starter minutes. Larry Costello was one of the better free throw shooters of the 60s. Sleepy Floyd really did have some very good offensive years. Isiah Thomas said he hated guarding him. Sidney Green was a solid rebounder and managed to be a double double guy per 36 for his career. JJ Hickson has the potential to be a very good player in the right system. Jamal Magloire made the All-star team, another reason not to like Canada. Ruben Patterson was the first Kobe stopper. He had a decent career. Flynn Robinson was a high scoring point guard who got to the line a decent amount of times and shot a high percentage from it. Bobby Simmons had a few decent years but that contract he got was ridiculous. Iman Shumpert has one of the worst hairstyles ever. Hakim Warrick was(is?) a nice backup power forward. Hassan Whiteside had one hell of a year. Let's see if he can keep up the form. Sidney Wicks was a big double-double player for bad teams. 20/10 on low efficiency in his prime. Thaddeus Young wore it in Philly. He is a good enough player. Gerald was the less talented Wilkins that was an okay scorer during his career. Archie Clark was a scoring guard and had some good years in Philladelphia. Michael Cooper was the primary perimeter defender of the showtime Lakers. He got into it with Bird all the time. Vlade Divac wore it during his Kings days, but sadly the talent level of this number is so great he couldn't get into the voting option. Alvin Robertson has a DPOY, recorded a quadruple-double, got smacked by Shaq, holds the record for most steals per game for career and in a single season, had some very good
seasons and still couldn't be a votable option.

Last edited by Mandich on Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kevin Garnett is a legend wearing 21 for Minnesota even winning an MVP award there. But clearly this goes to Tim Duncan, arguably the best Power Forward of all-time.

Timmy over the Human Highlight Film

Tim Duncan over anyone man, that guy is the ultimate player you want to start a franchise off with who isn't named Michael Jordan. Huge man-crush on that guy.

Tim Duncan hands down for me, pro of all pros and still going strong!

There will always be a td / kg debate but I think longevity will show that Duncan is better.

The Duncan/KG debate is a fun one, but I have to give Duncan the nod there. It's also funny how they overshadow Nique, who was a great player in his own right and deserves a mention at the very least. But yeah, it has to be Duncan.

His brilliance during his prime speaks for itself, but it's also impressive how Duncan has been able to remain relevant and a quality contributor to the Spurs as he's gotten older, and stepped aside into a smaller role. Not all star players - especially all-time greats - can make that transition. Granted, many retire before they really have to, but it still speaks volumes about his character, and his skillset. I think it's fair to say that he's also one of the best in history at using the glass: some of the angles he banks shots in from are just ridiculous.

Menopauss, it's 22nd.

Duncan ran away with this one. So much for being the most difficult one yet.

Menopauss, it's 22nd.

Duncan ran away with this one. So much for being the most difficult one yet.

Not really, one could argue about KG and make this a very long discussion.

Tim Duncan

From day 1 of his NBA career, his team was changed forever. Always a contender.

Menopauss, it's 22nd.

Duncan ran away with this one. So much for being the most difficult one yet.

i wouldnt call this one the most difficult yet but i would say it had the most "sorry you were great but i have to vote for..." type of players in it.

i wouldnt call this one the most difficult yet but i would say it had the most "sorry you were great but i have to vote for..." type of players in it.

Agreed. If Duncan ends up winning this one unanimously, I don't think that will necessarily mean that everyone thinks he's head and shoulders above all the other #21s.

It's strange to see Duncan taking this one unanimously so far as I though some people would be big Garnett/Wilkins fans.

I am disappoints.

I'm guessing everyone feels Duncan deserves to get his due. I think he's a player that fans have appreciated more and more as the years have gone by.

Team KG here... Probably Duncan is a tad better at the post but KG is a far more better perimeter defender, he got a much further range, can play the 3-5 spots and of course that motor...

I'm not without bias, since Tim Duncan is probably my favourite player of all time, but I always thought he would gain a healthy majority for the 21. Not just for his prime, but for his longevity as well. Surprised he never won a DPOY.

Let's go Tim "I will never ever retire" Duncan

It's strange to see Duncan taking this one unanimously so far as I though some people would be big Garnett/Wilkins fans.

I am disappoints.

i am a huge dominique fan but this is a vote on who i think is better not who i like more so duncan has to get my vote here

Let's settle this.

Duncan - more rings, played on a team that slowly turned guys on there roster into a Big 3 the Spurs didn't have to go out a buy current allstars to win and also Duncan is still playing like he's in his late 20's!

A fundamental.

There isn't any busts in Tim Duncan's teams. Because he makes every single teammate around him better.

Tim Duncan's character just is superb.

We know for sure, in all future debates, Kobe's leadership and willingness to win will always be brought up as if it's something of Jordan equal. It's just a joke. I'd give at least 3 times more points to Tim Duncan's intangibles.

Trust you to bring up Kobe in a thread about Duncan. You don't disappoint.

This is not about me a disappoints. When it comes to talk of intangible, Kobe becomes always relevant because he's widely regarded as the best ever in that department.




It's actually a legit topic because Duncan's very under appreciated when it comes down to it.

No doubt Intangible helps the team. Bad attitude and personality can derail the franchise from reaching maximum possible success or vice versa, you can be a shitty player but still can be a humongous positive force like, by being able to recruit superstars(Wade, Pierce, etc) or by being a player coach/cheerleader. So the question becomes how much has a player helped(or fucked up) the team with intangible skill set?

Duncan from day 1 in the NBA was nothing but picture perfect model franchise player, teammate, and a leader imo. He's also the most coachable superstar ever as well (at least in my book afaik). I can't think of single instance when he was detrimental to the team, coach, and teammate. I will go as far as to claim he's the best franchise caliber player to have in 3pt era in terms of characteristics and personality. It is partially why I would place him above any other PFs despite minor statistical fallacy here and there.

According to who? Kobe fans? I think the general/normal NBA fan is more than aware Duncan is the best after the Jordan era. If Shaq was half as disciplined/serious as Kobe he'd probably win that title but I think it's safe to say it's Duncan over Kobe for the rest.

You just need a reason to go on a rant about Kobe and/or the Celtics/Lakers.

You missed the point.