NLSC Greatest of All-time: #2

[Mandich]

-Fourth number of the many

-#1 was won by McGrady with a small difference between him and Billups

-#2 will probably be a one sided vote, with many players being worthy of being the second best to ever wear the number

-You can vote for players in any way you want: On-court impact, Off-court impact, championships etc.

Nominees:

1. Alex English (1980-81 to 1990-91)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
25.6	5.5	4.3	.551	112	111	20.4	.130

* English was one of the best known scorers of the 80's. Obviously he wasn't on the level of Adrian Dantley, but was an elite one during the time. Sadly, English played no defense and never won anything in Denver. Still deserves a voting option.

2. Mitch Richmond (1991-92 to 2000-01)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
21.5	3.5	3.7	.557	110	110	17.9	.116

* So Mitch wasn't aware you could actually guard the player in front of you, much like English. He was a scorer, much like English. But was obviously not as good. He wasn't that good offensively either.

Richmond posted 6 All-star appearances in a row, which is respectable. Liked to shoot the three pointer during his prime, and was pretty accurate also.

3. Moses Malone (1982-83 to 1985-86)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
23.2	13.0	1.3	.569	114	102	22.6	.195

* During his four years wearing the number with the 76ers, Malone won a championship, 2 MVP awards, led the league in rebounding twice, once in PER and Ws/48, was a 4 time All-star, made the All-NBA first team three times and the 2nd once. He was also a monster on the offensive glass.

Moses clearly shouldn't be penalised for wearing it for a short while as he was amazing and by far better than any player on the list.

4. Jason Kidd (2007-08 to 2011-12)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
9.5	5.9	8.9	.530	110	104	16.0	.123

* This was well past his best years, as his prime was half #32 and half #5. He still was an efficient player and helped another all-time great win an NBA title over two all-time greats. Kidd wasn't as great a defender anymore but he added a three-point shot.

5. Larry Johnson (1991-92 to 2000-01)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
16.0	7.4	3.2	.551	112	107	16.3	.130

* So he had a few All-star worthy seasons. In his prime he was a fairly efficient offensive player and a solid rebounder. Somehow, 3 of the 5 best #2s hated to defend.

Other Notable Player Shoutout

There are so many players that can move up the ranks, but realisticaly not a single one that could dethrone Moses.

Derek Fisher should be mentioned because he won five titles, which is more than any other player in the list and the shoutout won combined.

Kyrie Irving is making a name for himself on offense recently, and just made the Finals.

I like watching Joe Johnson, even though he isn't really efficient and doesn't bring a lot of wins to a team. He also sucks on the defensive end.

John Wall has yet to make an notable impact on offense, but has improved defensively every year since he's been in the league.

Kawhi Leonard is the newest media baby as he won the Finals MVP and the DPOY, with the DPOY being a little bit of a gift.

[Sauru]

i think you got this one exactly right, clear cut for best with the debate coming with who would be second best

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think it has to go to Malone; you can throw in a couple more good years with the Hawks while wearing #2 as well. Considering he played for a number of teams and wore eight different numbers, it isn't exactly a 15 years with the same number, a couple more with a different one type of situation.

[mp3]

I voted for mosses too.

Clear cut with Alex English coming in 2nd even tho I really wanted to show love to my boy Larry "Big L" Johnson.

[stereoxide]

Malone wins this one for me.

[Kevin]

Malone.

[NovU]

Moses Malone.

I have no idea what kind of player Alex English was so I can't comment on him.


But battle between Kidd and Richmond sounds like a fun one. Kidd had a better career but Mitch at his peak imo was a better player. He even had Michael Jordan praising his game. He also had one of my all time favorite shooting form. Also having his picture displayed in Live series game that I thoroughly enjoyed as a kid has me biased.

[Mandich]

Get your arguments ready for #3. Wade/Iverson/Paul should be the best one yet.

#4 and #6 should also be a bloodbath. Barkley/Dantley/Bosh/Webber and Erving/Russell/LeBron. Can't wait

but Mitch at his peak imo was a better player.

I get you liking a player more, hence being bias, but Kidd was a really, really good player. Sure he sucked on offense but was a terrific passer and was the best defensive point guard of the era. One of the best defensive point guards ever, really. Just look at his peak Drtgs and where his teams finished on defense. Also note which players logged heavy minutes (Vince Carter, Keith Van horn, Nenad Krstic, Kerry Kittles, Rodney Rogers...).Also his rebounds make him even more amazing.

Mitch was really just a scorer. Obviously a good one, but he was never more than that. Even during his prime. He didn't bring that many wins either.

Kidd during prime: 14.6/6.8/8.8/1.88
Mitch during prime: 22.2/3.6/3.9/1.23

[NovU]

DRtg practically is a team number. You want avoid using it as a measurement of individual's defensive ability. Curry has better DRtg than CP3 and nearly rest of PGs in the league.


Mitch was a fine defender as far as I remember. Michael Jordan called him the toughest player in entire league to play against. The reason why I consider Mitch at his PEAK better than Kidd is similar to T-Mac being a better player than Billups for some stretch in their career.

[benji]

You could win a title with Kidd as your best player, you were lucky to make the playoffs with Mitch Richmond as your second best player.

Thread has no love for Eddy Curry. Where 7 footers rebounding like small forwards happens.

[NovU]

You could win a title with Kidd as your best player,

But this never happened.

Mitch played for the Kings. What could he have done more in era stocked with stacked teams.

[Alpha_]

Moses Malone.

[benji]

Richmond played in the post-expansion era, those teams weren't stacked. They were barren.

Kidd was the best player on multiple high level teams in his prime: 56-26 98' Suns, 56-26 '00 Suns, 53-29 '02 Nets, 56-26 '03 Nets, 49-33 '04 Nets. With a 47-35 and 48-34 pair of Suns teams peppered in there. He picked up a 19.5 PER, +4.9 BPM, 33.6 VORP. He played in 68 playoff games. Kidd was the dominant defensive guard of the period.

Richmond's run as the "best" player went: 26-56, 33-49, 26-56, 38-44, 33-49, 31-51, 25-57. He racked up a PER of 18.4, +1.7 BPM, 18.1 VORP. He played in four playoff games. Richmond was a sieve.

[NovU]

Look at Richmond's teammates in his prime years. He had Spudd Webb while Stockton and Payton were going around raping lesser teams. And ask yourself if he ever had a legit big other than Pete Chilcutt? That's also the era of great bigs. Malone, Barkley, Olajuwon, Rodman, O'neal, etc. Ask Kidd to win with Chilcutt and Spud Webb, you think?

[Moz]

Kidd is the more statistically appealing guy and you can have a lot of options with Kidd when you put him on your team's system compared to Richmond (who is pretty much a Klay Thompson kind of guy) so I'll pick Kidd if we're basing it off their careers... But then again, this is not about that so I'll pick Richmond over him since he's not the team's top dog anymore when he wore those numbers... And same with the majority, I'll go with Malone for the best guy who wore the number since Nate Rob's greatness was shortlived...

[airBerlin]

Kyrie gets my vote. Kawhi with a close 2nd.

[air gordon]

wearing 2 or 5, Jason Kidd is my choice. one of my fav players in the late 90's/early 2000

Moses was great. i just didn't get to see him play until his hawks days.

[mp3]

That's the only problem with some of theses "Great" players like Wilt, Russell etc is there won't be many people who have watched them play properly.

I am 34 years old and my basketball watching only goes back to 1990 lol

[Andrew]

I think there's still the awareness of them, though. I mean, all those tapes I grew up watching talked about the greatness of the previous generations, as well as the exploits of players like Isiah Thomas whose championships came a couple of years before I got into basketball.

[NovU]

Ofc endless discussion on all time greats and analytical articles help a bit too.

I will admit to certain degree that my bias for Mitch is probably being nostalgic as he was one of my favorite players when started watching basketball. Stats don't really like the guy but I think lots of it was due to being unfortunately stuck playing with worst of worst talents in the league in top heavy era. He didn't even have average caliber players as teammates until twilight years, let alone one allstar. I mean Vancouver had better players like Anthony Peeler, Lee Mayberry, Big Country, Otis Thorpe, Blue Edward, Greg Anthony, Bobby Hurley, etc. and still had trouble cracking 15 wins a season. Mitch imho had equal and more likely less talent to work with. 25 - 35 wins wasn't too surprising in the same way Love's Wolves was struggling to make 15 wins.

Many young guys like benji and sauru wouldn't know but he was quite a high profile guy even in late years of his career. He was traded for Chris Webber, that says a lot about his price tag at the time.

[benji]

Richmond (who is pretty much a Klay Thompson kind of guy)

Except for the fact that he wasn't an ungodly three point shooter, taking more like 4 per 36 and hitting 35-36% instead of taking 7 per 36 and hitting 42%.

He didn't even have average caliber players as teammates until twilight years, let alone one allstar. I mean Vancouver had better players like Anthony Peeler, Lee Mayberry, Big Country, Otis Thorpe, Blue Edward, Greg Anthony, Bobby Hurley, etc. and still had trouble cracking 15 wins a season.

lol

25 - 35 wins wasn't too surprising in the same way Love's Wolves was struggling to make 15 wins.

Under Kurt Rambis who hated Love and wouldn't play him.

Many young guys like benji and sauru wouldn't know but he was quite a high profile guy even in late years of his career. He was traded for Chris Webber, that says a lot about his price tag at the time.

It says a lot more about how shitty Washington was run. This is the team that gave like a billion dollars to Juwan Howard. And dropped $10 million a year on a 33 year old Rod Strickland. And immediately dropped to the dregs of the league after the trade.

Here's how bad the team management was. They pushed out Wes Unseld for Michael Jordan. And Jordan immediately cleaned up the books and if he wasn't insistent on forcing dead veterans onto the court the team could have made the playoffs before he got junked.

And had he dealt for Elton Brand that team definitely would have made the playoffs.

[Andrew]

And had he dealt for Elton Brand that team definitely would have made the playoffs.

And thus, Krause was never able to draft Kwame Brown. Tragic.

[benji]

Kwame, Eddy Curry, Chandler. om nom nom.

Best part would be when they played Chandler at SF, since they did it anyway.

I still argue the Bulls fucked up the Chandler deal when they didn't keep J.R. Smith.

[Andrew]

I hoped he'd get a shot, but there was no way he was getting significant minutes under Skiles.

[Sauru]

He didn't even have average caliber players as teammates until twilight years

Run TMC was the shit. mullin was an all star which i guess is considered less than average now

Many young guys like benji and sauru wouldn't know but he was quite a high profile guy even in late years of his career.

shit like this makes me think you are either retarded or full on troll