Parsons done for season; Rondo done with Mavericks

[Kevin]

DALLAS (AP) — Rajon Rondo is out in Dallas.

Are the Mavs simply covering up Rondo's unhappiness with this "back injury?"

Rick Carlisle made that clear when asked if he thought the free agent-to-be would wear a Mavericks uniform again.

"No, I don't," the coach said.

The Mavericks announced Wednesday that Rondo injured his back before the last of several times the point guard was benched in four months under Carlisle -- almost all of the second half of a 111-99 loss to Houston on Tuesday night that gave the Rockets a 2-0 lead in the first-round series.

Game 3 is Friday night in Dallas, and the Mavericks also will be without Chandler Parsons. The forward is out for the rest of the playoffs with a right knee injury that will require surgery.

Carlisle tried to sidestep a question about the timing of the Rondo announcement before giving the much more direct answer about the 29-year-old guard's future in Dallas.

It ended a saga that started with the December trade with Boston, a deal the Mavericks hoped would boost hopes for their first playoff series victory since winning the franchise's first championship four years ago.

Rondo had 10 playoff triple-doubles with the Celtics, who won the title in 2008 and went the NBA Finals again two years later. The Mavericks gambled that they were getting the player Rondo was before missing large parts of two seasons because of a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee.

Instead, Dallas ended up with a bad fit for an offense that regressed after being among the league's best at the time of the trade. Rondo also missed six games because of a broken bone near his left eye.

"My relationship with him was professional," Carlisle said. "We learned a lot going through this - trying to make this thing work."

Rondo was benched late in a close game not long after the five-player deal that sent guard Jameer Nelson, center Brandan Wright and forward Jae Crowder to Boston. In February, Rondo and Carlisle had a shouting match on the court that resulted in a one-game suspension.

In Game 2 against the Rockets, Rondo sat for all but the first 34 seconds in the second half. He was pulled after quickly picking up his third and fourth fouls guarding James Harden, and getting a technical after one of the calls.

While Carlisle could have hidden behind foul trouble as the reason for yet another ineffective game, the coach changed everything by leaving Rondo on the bench for good.

The two quick fouls were puzzling, but paled compared to Rondo inexplicably getting called for an eight-second backcourt violation while walking the ball up the court in the first half. His poor defense right after the call led to an easy 3-pointer for Jason Terry.

With the Mavericks leading early in the fourth quarter and backup Devin Harris unavailable because of a toe injury, Carlisle still didn't go back to Rondo. J.J. Barea, who scored 13 points, and seldom-used Raymond Felton were his choices.

"I don't make decisions out there," Mavs star Dirk Nowitzki said. "I thought Ray had some good stretches throughout the game, gave us a lift off the bench. I thought J.J. gave us a lift in the first half. I guess that's what coach rolled with."

http://www.nba.com/2015/news/04/22/mave ... ayoffs.ap/

[[Q]]

We have known for quite sometime that Rondo isn't a good team player and not really a good person in general, but the winning in Boston helped cover a lot of that up. Was a gamble by Cuban and the Mavs and they struck out.

[debiler]

What an asshole. I hope he ends up in New York.

[Spree#8]

It's truly fascinating how a team that traded a "superstar", "true point guard", "floor general", "playmaker extraordinaire" and triple-double machine for peanuts got better and the team that traded those peanuts for that superstar player got worse.

I've been saying for a while that Rondo is not good at all and now it has been confirmed in the strongest way possible. People got blinded by assists numbers and triple-doubles, but he is simply a negative impact player. Not even Rick Carlisle can prevent this guy from fucking up his team's offense (and I consider Carlisle a top2 coach in the NBA right now). If anyone still has any doubt why the Celtics' offense started to suck ass exactly when Rondo's role on the team increased (and his APG!), I don't know what to tell you.

Most overrated player of the 21st century. And perhaps ever, but before 21st century I wasn't old enough to follow the NBA closely enough to know who might have been as grossly overrated by the mainstream.

I have mentioned somewhere on this forum that - as a Sixers fan - I hope the Lakers sign Rondo in the offseason, because their pick likely won't convey this year... should I be careful what I'm wishing for? I mean, the pick is still top3-protected next year. Rondo and the '15 version of Kobe on one team might be a tanking checkmate.

[Mandich]

Rondo is well past his prime. I still think it wouldn't matter that much since pre-Rondo Mavs wouldn't have a shot against this Rockets either.

Most overrated player of the 21st century. And perhaps ever

Oh please, he is overrated, but that title has to go to Kobe.

I mean it.

[Spree#8]

Most overrated player of the 21st century. And perhaps ever

Oh please, he is overrated, but that title has to go to Kobe.

I mean it.

Most overrated defender, yeah. But player overall, I'd have to say no. Despite his flaws, prime Bryant's impact on offense was highly positive according to most any measures. It's also a fact that the Lakers have had some very strong offenses that included Kobe as the highest usage player and the primary ball handler. There's little evidence that Rondo is a helpful player at all, on either end.

[Mandich]

Rondo was never tuted the best player of his generation, earning 0 MVP's in the process hence resulting in the media stealing one for him. You know, "one of the greatest palyers ever" has to have MVP's to stand amongst his championships.

He was an impact on offense, no question about it. (Kobe)

Rondo had about 3 good years. Some players can't stay good for a longer amount of time.

[Spree#8]

Rondo was never tuted the best player of his generation, earning 0 MVP's in the process hence resulting in the media stealing one for him. You know, "one of the greatest palyers ever" has to have MVP's to stand amongst his championships.

He was, however, tuted a superstar, best "true" point guard, great playmaker, making his teammates better and all kinds of bullshit, resulting in him making multiple All-Star teams and even an All-NBA team.

One problem with Bryant's legacy is that he was arguably never the best player in the league in any single season (despite being one of the best for many seasons), and if he was, it was probably when his team was shit. That's why the only MVP he has is a "lifetime achievements" award, but number of MVPs isn't the greatest metric for rating players as it can be yet another popularity contest at times, as evidenced by the very example we're discussing.

Like I said, his 1000 All-Defense appearances made the award a complete joke, but Bryant has maintained a very high level of play for very long and that's his case for "one of the greatest". The validity of this case obviously depends on where among those greatest you would like to place him, but there's no denying that he was a force.

Rondo had about 3 good years. Some players can't stay good for a longer amount of time.

That really depends on what you mean by good years. Good APG? Certainly. Good impact on the team? Nope. The "big 3" Celtics were at their best early on, when Rondo was still a pretty marginal player who doesn't pound the air out of the ball for 20 seconds on every possession and usually sits in crunch time for Eddie House.

I'm assuming the good years you're referring to are 2010-12. That's when Rondo's role increased, that's when he started posting big assist numbers and that's when the team's offense started to decline. From good to average (2010, 15th in ORtg), to below average (2011, 18th in ORtg), to hilariously awful (2012, 27th). A point guard's job is - first and foremost - running the offense efficiently. Rondo did a mediocre job of that at his best and failed spectacularly at it later on.

By the way, the 2010 Finals were won by the Lakers in large part because of their defensive scheme in which they used 5 defenders to guard 4 players. Can you guess who the Celtics have to thank for that? I believe that right there was the origin of the "Rondo treatment", at least to such a large extent. People even used it to praise Kobe for "shutting Rondo down" by sagging 10-12 feet off of him, lol.

Let me also refresh something I've used in another discussion:

Celtics:

2011:

With Rondo (68 games): 106.6 ORtg / 100.9 DRtg 47-21 (.691)
Without Rondo (14 games): 104.1 ORtg / 97.4 DRtg 9-5 (.643)

2012:

With Rondo (53 games): 101.0 ORtg / 98.9 DRtg 31-22 (.585)
Without Rondo (13 games): 101.1 ORtg / 95.5 DRtg 8-5 (.615)

2013:

With Rondo (38 games): 100.9 ORtg / 102.7 DRtg 18-20 (.474)
Without Rondo (43 games): 104.2 ORtg / 104.2 DRtg 23-20 (.535)

2014:

With Rondo (30 games): 103.4 ORtg / 112.2 DRtg 6-24 (.200)
Without Rondo (52 games): 103.1 ORtg / 106.6 DRtg 19-33 (.365)

The amazing floor general, assist king, triple-double machine and great defender whose team almost always happens to play better without him. Probably the most overrated player in the league today - which isn't all that surprising to me, given his nature of shameless stat-whoring. So yeah, I'll take Jrue over him any day of the week.

A quick, partial update:

2015:

Boston

with Rondo (22 games): 8-14 (.364)
Without Rondo (60 games): 32-28 (.533)

Dallas

With Rondo (46 games): 26-20 (.565)
Without Rondo (36 games): 24-12 (.667)

I'll take a look at the teams' SRS and ORtg when I get home, but I think it's easy to guess what kind of story they will tell.

The conclusion is that Rondo's impact in his best years was marginally positive at best and at this point he's a net negative. It's not even up for debate, really. You can see it clearly looking at both Boston and Dallas this year.

[Mandich]

One problem with Bryant's legacy is that he was arguably never the best player in the league......but number of MVPs isn't the greatest metric for rating players.......popularity contest.......Like I said, his 1000 All-Defense appearances made the award a complete jok

I think we're on the same page here so there's no point in discussing it any further.

Subject is Rondo anyways.

That really depends on what you mean by good years. Good APG?

LOL who do you think I am. If we go for raw stats we can say Stephenson was good in Indiana 2 years back when he in fact was a shitty-stat whore player.

I'm assuming the good years you're referring to are 2010-12.

No so nothing you wrote latter is worth mentioning since I agree he was blatantly overrated during that period.

2008/2009 to 2010/2011.

I think we both realize there's more to a players contribution than just PPG, APG, RPG...

Rondo was always an overrated defender. But during these 3 years he was a really good facilitator. Of course anyone who said he was on the same level as CP3 (even I could of said it a couple of years back when I really wrote some stupid shit) is an idiot.

I don't think you could call any of his seasons elite.

But he had some good years.

[air gordon]

Maybe a younger Rondo with a full season with the Mavs could have turned out better.

I was never a fan of Rondo as he was a pest to the Bulls in the playoffs. He couldn't shoot a lick but he'd get them on the pick n roll. Kudos to him though. When the big 3 came together in Boston, there were a lot question marks about the pg and he filled in well. Yeah he benefitted in playing with those guys but he held his own

Not a big deal he was an star. The celts were the champs so to the victor goes the spoils.

Cant fault Cuban for trying

[Stress Fracture]

Problem with Cuban trying is that he's not getting the results that he wants.

Dismantling the 2011 team for Dwight/Deron is a classic example.

[NovU]

Rondo had about 3 good years. Some players can't stay good for a longer amount of time.

This much sums Rondo's career. He was arguably a top 3 PG in those years. After that it's been all downhill.

[air gordon]

Problem with Cuban trying is that he's not getting the results that he wants.

Dismantling the 2011 team for Dwight/Deron is a classic example.

Wasn't a bad idea. Didn't make sense to pay the contract Chandler received. I forget the other moves but Cuban put the team in position to land the FA's. Dallas has just struck out a few years now

[benji]

Rondo might average 20 assists a game next year with all that passing to Kobe and hopefully, Kobe alone.

[Andrew]

I've been saying for a while that Rondo is not good at all and now it has been confirmed in the strongest way possible. People got blinded by assists numbers and triple-doubles, but he is simply a negative impact player. Not even Rick Carlisle can prevent this guy from fucking up his team's offense (and I consider Carlisle a top2 coach in the NBA right now). If anyone still has any doubt why the Celtics' offense started to suck ass exactly when Rondo's role on the team increased (and his APG!), I don't know what to tell you.

I'd disagree that he's "not good at all", though only in the context that he is legitimately skilled and talented. His shaky jumpshot and atrocious free throw shooting aside, he has - in the past at least - been able to play the game at a high level, making a positive contribution of some kind at both ends of the floor. As an individual talent, he is/was a very good player, or at least is/was capable of being a very good player.

My nit-picking of semantics aside though, I do agree with you. I think the Celtics were able to make good use of his skills for a few years there, but he has demonstrated that he's far from a franchise player; his game and his attitude just don't fit the role. At this juncture, he doesn't seem willing to use his skills in a way that will allow him to have the positive impact that he should be capable of. The Mavericks rolled the dice, and it didn't work out. I'd definitely choose Carlisle over him as well, and the writing seems to have been on the wall since their falling out. It's a good call for Dallas to move on.

As for Parsons, that's a shame. I'd rather see teams at their strongest when they clash, and it's unfortunate to see another young player go down with injury.

[Brave Sir Rubin]

Rondo went to from a badass to a douche pretty quickly there.

The talent is obviously there. The Mavs never did seem like the right team though. Hopefully it all works out for him.

[Spree#8]

No so nothing you wrote latter is worth mentioning since I agree he was blatantly overrated during that period.

2008/2009 to 2010/2011.

Well, during those years maybe he wasn't the terrible impact stat whore that he would go on to become, but his impact during those years was - like I said - marginally positive at best. I've already mentioned the 2010 NBA Finals and that's when the Lakers showed the entire league how to neutralize Rondo's strengths and expose his weaknesses - his defender needs to stand in the paint and completely ignore him while helping out on somebody else. It's exactly how the Sixers came two possessions away from ECF in 2012 despite everybody predicting that the Celtics would get past them easily. Rondo's inability (or unwillingness) to adjust his game in order to punish teams for playing that way is what turned him into a negative impact player.

And even before then, Rondo was no All-Star. Garnett, Pierce and Allen made him.

I'd disagree that he's "not good at all", though only in the context that he is legitimately skilled and talented. His shaky jumpshot and atrocious free throw shooting aside, he has - in the past at least - been able to play the game at a high level, making a positive contribution of some kind at both ends of the floor. As an individual talent, he is/was a very good player, or at least is/was capable of being a very good player.

Well, he's clearly skilled. By "not good at all", I was referring to his impact.

Some of the passes he's capable of delivering make questioning his vision or passing skills stupid. It's the way he insists on using those skills - standing still dribbling the ball for 20 seconds, then passing to somebody for a contested jumper as the shot clock winds down. It's how he gets his worthless assists and how he kills any and all ball movement, which - coupled with his complete inability to shoot - makes his team easy to defend. Just sag way off and use 5 defenders to guard 4 players.

If there was any team capable of successfully working this ultimate spacing killer into their offense, it was probably Dallas due to how much outside shooting and/or scoring they have at almost every other position (and maybe Golden State, but they weren't on the market for a new point guard, for obvious reasons). Since Carlisle wasn't willing to give him complete control and free reign like Rivers though, the result is what we've all witnessed. A stat chaser with a bad attitude to boot.


And now it's time for a little comparison. Out of curiosity what would happen, I had saved up both teams' numbers from before the trade.

Boston before trade: ORtg 105.3 SRS -0.61
Boston end of season: ORtg 104.7 SRS -0.40

The slight improvement they made actually comes on the defensive end. Maybe this Smart kid really is projecting as one of the better defensive guards out there. The offense is almost the same. I was slightly surprised until I remembered that the Celtics' de facto point guard is now Evan Turner.

Dallas before trade: ORtg 115.9 SRS 6.13
Dallas end of season: ORtg 109.5 SRS 3.36

His Dallas offensive on/off of -8.8 is unbeliavably awful. You don't often see numbers this bad in a non-negligible sample size. That makes his slightly positive defense completely irrelevant. And being a better defender than Jameer Nelson is no big accomplishment anyway. What an impressive way to single-handedly shut down an offense with so much firepower. Rondo, you the real DPOTY.

[Andrew]

Absolutely, he's not using his skills effectively or efficiently. His temper and personality don't help much, either.

[Jeffx]

Absolutely, he's not using his skills effectively or efficiently. His temper and personality don't help much, either.

Wanna bet he winds up on the Knicks, Andrew?

[Andrew]

I was going to say they won't have the cap space, but I just glanced at their payroll for next season, and they actually will. Yikes...yeah, I could see that happening, if they can pique his interest. The Lakers can also sign him outright though, and that's the scenario that everyone seems to throw around, so you may dodge that bullet yet.