MJ vs. Kobe, Part Infinity

[Andrew]

As Kobe draws closer and closer to passing MJ on the all-time regular season scoring charts, the NBA.com bloggers weighed in with another comparison.

The Kobe Bryant-Michael Jordan comparisons have bubbled up again this week, and those two certainly share a lot of similarities. But what is the biggest difference in their games? In their careers?

[shadowgrin]

Jordan fan boys just can't accept that Kobe is better and just have to bring up Jordan's name every time Kobe achieves another accomplishment.

[Andrew]

Hey, we had to put up with Wilt/Big O fanboys in the 90s. Just paying it forward.

[Kevin]

Summary:
Jordan is a better defender

[NovU]

Here's a good read I came across the other day:

http://time.com/3562591/kobe-bryant-mic ... ll-player/



These debates should have two parts.

1. Which player has the greater skill set to work with?
2. Which player uses his skill set more effectively?

Many players that rate higher than Kobe on advanced metrics models are nowhere near him in terms of skill set. Players, fans, and to some extent management/coaches tend to evaluate players strictly in terms of skill sets. That where the divergence of opinion comes from. That’s why every player that has ever played against Kobe will says he’s way better than the metrics say. They know that he can do things that the other players cannot.

The real debate is on all the bad shots Kobe takes. They impact his efficiency. So other players wind up rating higher. But how many of those poor shots are self inflicted poor basketball decisions and how many are because his role on the team is to take some shots that his teammates would be even worse at?

Answer that and you know how good he really is.

In any event, under any circumstances, he’s way below Jordan. Jordan was in the same role, did it way better, and did everything else better too.

[Mandich]

In any event, under any circumstances, he’s way below Jordan.

I don't even know how anybody can put Kobe over MJ(even say they are equal) with a straight face.

Kobe will never be MJ. He says he doesn't want to, that he wants to be known as himself( pretty much the answer you'll get from any star being compared to an great), and yet he copied his talk, walk, his tongue sometimes.

This guy is pathetic and horribly overrated. Is he even in the top 10 all time? Not by my counts.

[shadowgrin]

Only an idiot would not include Kobe in the top 10 SG of all time.

[Kevin]

Only an idiot would not include Kobe in the top 10 SG of all time.

1.)MJ
2.)MJ
3.)MJ
4.)MJ
5.)MJ
6.)MJ
7.)MJ
8.)MJ
9.)MJ
10.)MJ

Problem?

[Mandich]

Only an idiot would not include Kobe in the top 10 SG of all time.

Good thing I was talking about players in general.

Wtf shadow.

[Stress Fracture]

So where you will rank Kobe in the Top 10 SG of all-time?

[shadowgrin]

Only an idiot would not include Kobe in the top 10 SG of all time.

Problem?

You're canadien, it's a given.

[Mandich]

So where you will rank Kobe in the Top 10 SG of all-time?

Despite my opinion on him, he's second. I'd like to put Wade over, but it's just not possible.

[NovU]

I wouldn't say it's not possible. Not entirely true.

Statistically you could say even Reggie Miller was better than Kobe Bryant. This is not an opinion but looking at numbers and saying 2>1. Kobe had legendary big man and hall of fame bigs(shaq, gasol, bynum) as teammates to win him 5 rings. Reggie had Rik Smits. Good luck going up against stacked teams in 90s with that.

[Jeffx]

I'll add a third player to the mix - 'Mr Clutch" Jerry West. Look at his overall skills, numbers, defense and toughness. To me, he's tied with Kobe at #2 behind Jordan.

[Mandich]

I really haven't watched much of Jerry West. But from what I can see statisticaly, West is a bit better.

Still, 5/1 is a big difference.

[Andrew]

Summary:
Jordan is a better defender

And more efficient, and the undisputed alpha dog on all six of his championship teams, whereas Shaq was undoubtedly The Man on the 2000-2002 threepeat squads.

Well, Kobe just passed MJ. And congratulations to him, it's an accomplishment and a tribute to his longevity. I'm sure that for a lot of people, it'll be "proof" that he's better than/surpassed MJ, but for those people, any random milestone or accomplishment would suffice in that regard. And hey, I can't pretend like I don't have my own bias here, either.

Still, I have to go with MJ, for the same reasons that were outlined by those NBA.com bloggers and so many others through the years. The thing is, saying that MJ is better or continuing to rank him #1 (overall or at his position) is not automatically a knock on Kobe, or a suggestion that he's terrible. That would be insane. He's had too great a career for that, his body of work speaks for itself. But Jordan...well, it's not all narrative, nostalgia, and hype. The man was pretty good at this basketball thing.

[Cpt(K)]

Someone had to post this eventually, well, I might as well link this analysis. Been a while since I watched one of his videos, especially one regarding the NBA. http://youtu.be/sO4Gc4QVPw0

His analysis is definitely worth considering - and I have to agree with it. I can't help but pull a single attribute out from it all and examine their efficiency with their minutes on the court. One can definitely say that points (among other facets of the game) were achieved more efficiently in less time, which is really the basis of most arguments in favor of Michael. Kobe on the other hand . . . eh, I can't really begin to come up with a proper defense as to why some believe his latest milestone propels him above his peer(s).

One thing I can say is that the use of excuses, or compensation measures are quite unnecessary. I've tried to approach the discussion with a solid "no excuses" foundation, which is difficult considering the many different opinions surfacing out there.

My personal thoughts coincide with Michael's many individual achievements in comparison with Kobe's. I cannot find anything wrong with that statement - since we are comparing individuals and their performances over their respective careers. An examination of the time allotted and the accumulation of awards within the time used. I don't really need to go any further than this, because everyone knows where my statements are going. Also, I should probably be getting to bed now.

[Andrew]

What sets MJ apart from Kobe and other all-time greats for me is that he's really kind of unique, something of an anomaly. His career boasts an impressive resume of both individual and team accomplishments, with some significant overlap. Some of his biggest numbers pre-date the Bulls' greatest success, but he put up some impressive ones during the championship years, too.

He also defied conventional basketball logic, and I'm not talking about the tales of how he could seemingly do the impossible and pulled off so many amazing things in midair (although it's worth mentioning). Traditionally speaking, a player like Michael Jordan - a high scoring swingman - doesn't lead a team to as much success as the Bulls enjoyed.

In fact, if we're talking about scoring champions in general, only 11 NBA Champions have also featured the league's leading scorer. Michael Jordan accounts for six of those occurrences, and George Mikan is the only other player to have won the scoring crown and NBA title in the same season more than once (twice, to be exact). Again, you don't usually build championship teams - let alone six of them - around a high scoring shooting guard. If you do have a player in that mold, they're usually complimenting, or are complimented by a star big man. Jordan was not.

It's what sets Larry Bird and Magic Johnson apart from the other greats, too. MJ, Larry Legend, Magic...they had the talent and the skills that great basketball players traditionally have, but at the same time, they didn't fit the archetype of other successful players at their position. Great scorers don't usually win as much as MJ, nor are they usually as good defensively as he was. Point guards aren't usually 6'9", or have as much all-around talent as Magic did. Bird's skill and savvy allowed him to dictate the course of a game, despite the fact he was an average athlete (at best) in an era where the league was beginning to become very athletic across the board. In many ways, they shouldn't have been able to do what they did...but they did indeed do it.

In his Book of Basketball, Bill Simmons described Kobe's career as a "grotesque imitation" of MJ. In a way, that's kind of harsh, and diminishes what has been an amazing career in its own right. At the same time...it's an apt description. MJ's career broke from the norm, whereas Kobe's followed the example set by it. In following in MJ's footsteps, I think that some of the ways in which the two differ - Kobe not being The Man in the 2000-2002 threepeat, having star bigs in 2009 and 2010 - is what sets MJ apart. Kobe has probably come as close to MJ as anyone has or will for some time (LeBron's brilliance not withstanding), but I still believe he ranks behind Jordan. He is however still an all-time great in his own right.

[Arcane]

What sets MJ apart from Kobe and other all-time greats for me is that he's really kind of unique, something of an anomaly. His career boasts an impressive resume of both individual and team accomplishments, with some significant overlap. Some of his biggest numbers pre-date the Bulls' greatest success, but he put up some impressive ones during the championship years, too.

He also defied conventional basketball logic, and I'm not talking about the tales of how he could seemingly do the impossible and pulled off so many amazing things in midair (although it's worth mentioning). Traditionally speaking, a player like Michael Jordan - a high scoring swingman - doesn't lead a team to as much success as the Bulls enjoyed.

In fact, if we're talking about scoring champions in general, only 11 NBA Champions have also featured the league's leading scorer. Michael Jordan accounts for six of those occurrences, and George Mikan is the only other player to have won the scoring crown and NBA title in the same season more than once (twice, to be exact). Again, you don't usually build championship teams - let alone six of them - around a high scoring shooting guard. If you do have a player in that mold, they're usually complimenting, or are complimented by a star big man. Jordan was not.

It's what sets Larry Bird and Magic Johnson apart from the other greats, too. MJ, Larry Legend, Magic...they had the talent and the skills that great basketball players traditionally have, but at the same time, they didn't fit the archetype of other successful players at their position. Great scorers don't usually win as much as MJ, nor are they usually as good defensively as he was. Point guards aren't usually 6'9", or have as much all-around talent as Magic did. Bird's skill and savvy allowed him to dictate the course of a game, despite the fact he was an average athlete (at best) in an era where the league was beginning to become very athletic across the board. In many ways, they shouldn't have been able to do what they did...but they did indeed do it.

In his Book of Basketball, Bill Simmons described Kobe's career as a "grotesque imitation" of MJ. In a way, that's kind of harsh, and diminishes what has been an amazing career in its own right. At the same time...it's an apt description. MJ's career broke from the norm, whereas Kobe's followed the example set by it. In following in MJ's footsteps, I think that some of the ways in which the two differ - Kobe not being The Man in the 2000-2002 threepeat, having star bigs in 2009 and 2010 - is what sets MJ apart. Kobe has probably come as close to MJ as anyone has or will for some time (LeBron's brilliance not withstanding), but I still believe he ranks behind Jordan. He is however still an all-time great in his own right.

"Larry Flynt is Right!!!!"

[NovU]

I'd put Kobe in the Drexler, Wade, McGrady bin of wing players. He's not touching MJ.

[Andrew]

I'd have to rank him ahead of those guys based on his personal accomplishments. I don't know that he's as close to MJ as some people suggest, and I certainly don't think he's surpassed MJ, but he's still the closest anyone has come to him at the shooting guard position.

[Sauru]

i really wish jordan never retired those 2 times just so this discussion would not keep coming up. if he does not retire he ends with the most points (already has the highest ppg yet no one seems to bring that up) and probably a couple more rings. its possible that the bulls could of won 8 in a row if he never retired the first time though by no means a sure thing. if he stayed no one would even try to bring it up now. i feel the same way about barry sanders. if he never retires so young he destroys the rushing record and i wouldnt have to talk about why he was so much better than emmitt

[Andrew]

i really wish jordan never retired those 2 times just so this discussion would not keep coming up. if he does not retire he ends with the most points (already has the highest ppg yet no one seems to bring that up) and probably a couple more rings. its possible that the bulls could of won 8 in a row if he never retired the first time though by no means a sure thing. if he stayed no one would even try to bring it up now. i feel the same way about barry sanders. if he never retires so young he destroys the rushing record and i wouldnt have to talk about why he was so much better than emmitt

Agreed. It's funny to think that Bird and Magic also have something of a "what if?" and "what could've been" element to their careers, incredible though they were.