Rodman about LeBron being 'average'

[_Steve_]

From ESPN and multiple sources:

Dennis Rodman says LeBron James would be "average" if he played in the 1990s, and insists James' Miami Heat would be no match for his old Chicago Bulls team.

"It's really not a comparison. If LeBron was playing in the late '80s and early '90s, he would be just an average player," Rodman said Friday on "The Dan Patrick Show." "To do what Michael has done ... what he did was more charisma, there was more articulating and stuff like that. LeBron is more like ... there's no flash to his game. He's a great player, don't get me wrong, he's a hell of player, I'll give him that. But to me Scottie (Pippen) and Michael are probably the two best one-two punches I've ever seen."

Rodman, who won three NBA titles with Jordan's Bulls from 1996-98, said a 28-year-old Jordan would average at least 40 points a game in today's NBA.

"I'm just sick and tired of people comparing (James) to Michael Jordan," Rodman said. "It's a whole different era, man."

Rodman said Jordan thrived despite playing in a more physical era in the NBA.

"LeBron came into the age of the game at a perfect time. Michael came into the game when back then you could hit people, knock him down, shoot a free throw and get back up," Rodman said. "And LeBron can't do that. All they do today is (complain) about a foul. All they do is (complain)."

James, who has been to the NBA Finals in each of his three seasons in Miami, won his first title last season. The Heat lost Game 1 of the Finals to the San Antonio Spurs on Thursday.

Rodman believes his best Bulls team would easily defeat James' Heat.

"It would be no contest. The Heat has better talent than we had, but we had smarter players," Rodman said. "That's the only thing we had, smarter players. ... I would take Bosh out of his damn game easy. That's not even a problem. And how would Dwyane Wade match up with Scottie Pippen? Really? And Scottie Pippen would guard LeBron easy. And how are you going to cover those two guys (Jordan and Pippen)?"

Those words came from a guy that wears dresses from time to time and who calls Kim Jong Un a 'friend'.
On the other hand Rodman (one of my top ten favourites) was one of the best defensive players ever to play the game. I can see him taking Posh completely out of his game as he stated. I also see that (1995-96) Bulls team winning against LBJ's Heat. I'm still not sold about the idea of LeBron being just 'average' (during the first 3 quarters if play). Well I agree on Rodman that in today's NBA MJ would probably average more PPG as he did in the '90ies. But I also think LBJ has the tools to average 20+ PPG in that area. I see Rodman's point of LeBron complaining too much - running up and down the court when the game is stopped reminded me of Forest Gump playing football - but after all it's his combination of athleticism and skills together with his frame that would have made him a tough matchup even inthe '90ies.
Man I would have loved Posh vs. Rodman...

[NovU]

I seen this couple days ago and only part I found interesting was this.

"It would be no contest. The Heat has better talent than we had, but we had smarter players," Rodman said. "That's the only thing we had, smarter players."

I can't say I concur fully because Pippen, MJ, Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr, etc. were clearly the better talent than Bosh, LeBron, Wade, washRay, Chalmers, Haslem, Battier. And those Bulls were definitely one of the best ever if not the best ever. That Bulls team was way more structurally sound, and better balanced than today's Heat with apparent loopholes and flaws in their game and as a team.

I mean can you even think of a team that could match those talent in recent era of basketball? How about the team that dominated the opponent like they did throughout both the season and playoffs? They made it look so easy all the way. So OP almost cheating.

If you really had to pick a team to compare, perhaps the Spurs or the Lakers from one of their dynasty years? Or maybe 08 Celtics?

[benji]

I'm not so sure those Bulls were "clearly" better. Jordan was the best in the game, and LeBron is the best in the game. Pippen and Rodman were at least All-Star talents, same with Wade/Bosh. (Latter probably worse on defense but better offensively over the course of their corresponding "three-peats".) Kukoc is probably better than anyone else on the Heat but he's kinda Rodman's offense, after that it's really a wash. Allen is better than anyone else on the Bulls probably, Battier and Andersen would easily be in the Bulls rotation. Rodman's right they'd be smarter.

The Heat would struggle in that era for the same reason they do against the Pacers and Spurs, good centers.

LeBron today transplanted back would be pretty hard to stop from dominating the game. Who's guarding him exactly? There's no zone. You think handchecking will stop him? Guys like Oakley, Mason, Rodman are all smaller, and you can't afford to stick them out on the perimeter with LeBron for 40 minutes a night. It's mostly the same matchup issue as today.

LeBron translates far better than the team, same as with any team which is constructed for the moment. I think the 1996 Bulls would have a hard time against modern defenses since their primary lineup has no real three point shooting and you could now overload on Jordan. The more you play Kukoc and Kerr the more their defense suffers. (Though they could also get away with more Rodman-Kukoc.)

The 2008 Celtics are the team I'd more like to see play the 1996 Bulls though.

I mean can you even think of a team that could match those talent in recent era of basketball? How about the team that dominated the opponent like they did throughout both the season and playoffs? They made it look so easy all the way. So OP almost cheating.

Or, it's a chicken and the egg situation. They beat up on a bunch of crappy Eastern teams and beyond benefited from a shorter three point line. Their only other competition in the conference went without its best player for 28 games and then lost one of its best players in the playoffs. Aren't hypothetical counternarratives fun?

[NovU]

But should we not compare simply player to player but from their own respective eras? MJ clearly by far was the best, in class of his own. Pippen had close to no rivals at his position. Rodman probably was the best(at what he does) in terms of providing inside presence. Doesn't each of this trio have their own case at being the best player respectively at their position at the time.

Today's Heat team has talent but I am not so sure if each stands significantly above others like the Bulls players did in their own era.

The 2008 Celtics are the team I'd more like to see play the 1996 Bulls though.

Agreeable.

The Bulls were built so well for their time that they nearly had no loopholes against any team and in any situation. I think you can say this only for a handful of teams in a similar tone.

[Andrew]

I would say that Rodman is exaggerating out of pride in his era. LeBron is simply too talented to have just been an average player in the 80s and 90s. I'd suggest he'd still have been a dominant player, perennial All-Star and all-time great if he was part of that generation.

It's an interesting discussion of course, especially given LeBron's comments about the Bulls' roughness this season. If he were playing in that era with the same attitude, he might not have been the most respected star in the league. Teams like the Pistons and later the Riley coached Knicks certainly would have taken advantage of his dislike of and frustration with very physical defense, and it's an interesting question as to how he would've dealt with that. However, had LeBron been of that generation, his attitude towards physical play might have been more in line with that old school mentality. Combine that with his skill and size, and he'd be just fine.

As for MJ averaging 40 in today's league...well, he averaged 37 and 35 against some stiff competition in the 80s. Had he grown up with the three point line as the subsequent generation did, that probably would've been a bigger part of his game as well, which would've helped in putting up big numbers. Take MJ in his prime and add that to his arsenal, I'd say yeah, it's not unfeasible that he'd at least put up the same 30-odd PPG he did for much of his career, or even 40 ppg in the right situation (a la Kobe on the 2006 Lakers).

[Sauru]

imo those bulls do beat this heat simply cause the bulls were at the best in the same spots the heat are at their best. i have always said that pippen would have been able to guard lebron better than anyone and i have no doubts about jordan holding wade, specially if we are talking this years wade. once you get past those 2 the heat are not left with very much imo. also one thing to consider is coaching. the bulls had phil jackson while the heat have no one lol

[shadowgrin]

Neither Jordan nor Pippen would guard Wade. Ron Harper.

Heat have more talent. By talent I mean players that can start for other teams or come off the bench in a short 8-man rotation in their respective time period or both.

Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, Longley, Kerr

LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, Haslem, Battier, Chalmers, Andersen, Mike Miller

One might argue the Bulls had more talent if taking into account the presence of Bill Wennington, Jud Buechler, and Jack Haley but the presence of Joel Anthony is enough to offset that Bulls advantage.

[_Steve_]

The presence of Joel Anthony is nothing compared to the power of the Dark Side... erm I mean the presence of Dickey Simpkins, James Edwards, Jason Caffey and John Salley!

[Cpt(K)]

shadowgrin, John Salley could start on another team too imo. We're looking at the 95/96 roster right? Another reason why I would think the Heat would have a problem in this era, as would Lebron, is the physical nature- the adjustment from what the league is now and what it was then. Rodman laying out Shaq on the floor (rewarded a mere foul I think, maybe a flagrant 1), he wouldn't have a problem giving a few licks to Lebron and co. As for talent, didn't the 2011 Heat have more talent than the ill-favored Mavericks?


I don't think Lebron would be "average" given time to adjust to it all, but if you swap him out now with all his attitude and frustration he'd have a difficult time (e.g. his little hissy fits). It's not all about his physical skills, his mental toughness would also play into it. I'm not sure when his attitude went so sour, was it even before when he entered the league or after his foul count significantly dropped?

Andrew, Well, given that Michael Jordan averaged 20 points at 39 and was a top scoring leader at 38 (I forget what rank, but he was up there) until his knee bummed I think it's plausible. Stick prime Jordan into any year of this decade, save for anything before the 02/03 season.

Just my thoughts.

[NovU]

Imo Important thing is that the Bulls team were head and shoulder above the competition. It's almost a disrespect to who's considered the best team in the history of NBA. Even delusional Heat fans(like myself) should realize there's not a real discussion here. If any, 08 Celtics probably deserves more to be mentioned.

I still love my Rodman despite his Kim Jong Un bias and occasional Barbie dresses. He talks crazy shit but he always has and who doesn't. Is only a gravy to the fun. What he's done as a player still is a special gift to the hoop fans.

[shadowgrin]

John Salley could start on another team too imo. We're looking at the 95/96 roster right?

John Salley lol no. If we're talking about Salley late 80's then maybe but not that Salley with the Bulls.

The presence of Joel Anthony is nothing compared to the power of the Dark Side... erm I mean the presence of Dickey Simpkins, James Edwards, Jason Caffey and John Salley!

Blasphemy! OMG RACIST!

[bowdown]

Rodman is the same guy who thinks Kim Jong Un is a guy to hang out with for fun.

[Andrew]

Rodman is the same guy who thinks Kim Jong Un is a guy to hang out with for fun.

A questionable point of view, certainly, but irrelevant to his views on basketball.

[Jeffx]

As for MJ averaging 40 in today's league...well, he averaged 37 and 35 against some stiff competition in the 80s. Had he grown up with the three point line as the subsequent generation did, that probably would've been a bigger part of his game as well, which would've helped in putting up big numbers. Take MJ in his prime and add that to his arsenal, I'd say yeah, it's not unfeasible that he'd at least put up the same 30-odd PPG he did for much of his career, or even 40 ppg in the right situation (a la Kobe on the 2006 Lakers).

I agree. The league wants more offense - these days you can't touch wing players anymore, so cats like Jordan would have a field day in today's soft NBA. And not just Jordan - imagine the numbers Bird, George Gervin, Alex English, David Thompson, Dr.J, etc. could put up now?

[Patr1ck]

It's still relative. Would Jordan have improved his game so much without those physical defenses? Would he have been as aggressive? Would he have been more aggressive possibly leading to harsher fouls and more chances of serious injuries?

I think it's easy to spot that today's players are much bulkier and stronger than they were in the 80's and 90's. The majority seemed lanky and long which was a "basketball body" or something. How many 6'7"/8" 250lb point forwards were there in Jordan's era that could probably compete with success at 4 if not 5 positions?

[shadowgrin]

Would Jordan have improved his game so much without those physical defenses?

lol yes. He is the guy that makes up imaginary slights just to motivate himself.
He'll have no problem improving if he sees players better than him.

Would he have been as aggressive?

Based on what I've seen of him, yes. He's willing to drive past 2-3 defenders and more often than not scores over them.

Would he have been more aggressive possibly leading to harsher fouls and more chances of serious injuries?

We've seen Jordan take the beatings against those Pistons and Knicks teams, he'll be fine in today's 'soft' NBA with the improved conditioning and health advances.

It's always a good point regarding physicality of the game with regard to the size of players today compared to those of the past but imo it's not much of an issue.
Hacking someone's hand 60 years ago is still the same today, painful. Same with the impact of bringing down a player while in midair or other physical stuff.
And who's to say the players from the past if were playing today wouldn't take advantage of the advancements in nutrition, conditioning, training, etc. that players have today?
Jordan's time isn't that relatively far off from the present anyway, it's not like we're comparing the 50's-60's where white small guys were abundant to the current players.

[Sauru]

Rodman is the same guy who thinks Kim Jong Un is a guy to hang out with for fun.

say what you will about the man off the court but on it he was one of the smartest to play the game

[NovU]

Today's players get benefits of improved technology in treatment, training, and conditioning. MJ regularly smoked cigars and never went to Germany like Kobe did. Today's generation is much more health conscious than before anyways, not just the atheletes but everybody in general. We are constantly told how sodas and hot-dogs are bad, and there's not a place in this world to smoke ciggs without feeling guilt. Had MJ lived in this era, I believe he'd even be a bigger threat considering his work ethic and competitive nature.

[Sauru]

Today's players get benefits of improved technology in treatment, training, and conditioning. MJ regularly smoked cigars and never went to Germany like Kobe did. Today's generation is much more health conscious than before anyways, not just the atheletes but everybody in general. We are constantly told how sodas and hot-dogs are bad, and there's not a place in this world to smoke ciggs without feeling guilt. Had MJ lived in this era, I believe he'd even be a bigger threat considering his work ethic and competitive nature.

best thing you have ever said

[shadowgrin]

Today's players get benefits of improved technology in treatment, training, and conditioning. MJ regularly smoked cigars and never went to Germany like Kobe did. Today's generation is much more health conscious than before anyways, not just the atheletes but everybody in general. We are constantly told how sodas and hot-dogs are bad, and there's not a place in this world to smoke ciggs without feeling guilt. Had MJ lived in this era, I believe he'd even be a bigger threat considering his work ethic and competitive nature.

lol whenever the issue of smoking and drinking comes up about NBA players I'm always reminded of Don Nelson's playing days with the Celtics. Heck even Red Auerbach smoked a cigar on the court.

[Patr1ck]

His entire persona would have been changed. He wouldn't have grown up a goofy parachute pants wearing, electronic music loving guy. He would have been sagging his pants, bumping gangsta music, and the attitude would have been different. He wouldn't have gotten ignored everytime he complained to a ref, he would have got techs. He could have came into the league after high school or his first year of college and could have been a completely different person.

[shadowgrin]

That's like thinking what if Hitler got into art school instead of being rejected or if Hatler hadn't caused a decades long recession. It's nearing to the extreme of the what if scenario now.

I don't see how a person's fashion and musical taste greatly affects his motivation. So he would have seen Iverson and wants to be better than him. Or seen Kobe, T-Mac, LeBron, Derrick Rose, Durant come early to the NBA and be equal or greater than them. All the while looking ridiculous like those retards Lil Wayne or Kanye West.

He wouldn't have gotten ignored everytime he complained to a ref, he would have got techs.

I don't see LeBron and Kobe having that problem, I assume alternate Jordan Now won't have it too.

[NovU]

I could see that, Pdub. Absolutely. Persona depends a lot on upbringing, environment, and time being.

I also could envision him being inch or two taller, several pounds heavier, just as fast and stronger, still dominating the league like no other. He also could have been hanging out with boys at Olympics and planned on playing together. Lol. Don't you love hypothetical narratives.

[Patr1ck]

Yeah, because you can go anywhere with them.

[benji]

Jordan today would have stuck to baseball because not being on his varsity team at 15 and not playing AAU ball he'd never be on any scouts list, never bother to take up basketball and instead spend the rest of his life trying to make the MLB only to settle for managing a high school team and teaching freshman geography.