Greatest of the Three Point Era: Defensive Players

[benji]

In this case we want to decide who are the ultimate defensive players. Pick ten, pick five, pick one at each position, pick positions and five best, pick your poison.

BOILERPLATE:
And here we go again, some notes again:
We're considering only 1977-78 forward. The best seven year stint of that player, in other words the "prime" of their career.

Should note, that you are not required to name the seven years for the player, it is merely a guideline to focus thoughts on the player at his best and to ignore things like legacy or entire careers.

And should also note that in instances regarding injuries, yes, go the extra year. For example, Grant Hill only plays SEVEN FULL SEASONS from 1995-2005 despite it being ten years. Also even if they play, like David Robinson in 1996-97, for a few games, you can skip over/include that season. If a player does something like play 17 games in one season and 55 games in another plus six full seasons, you can include both shortened seasons even if it's eight total seasons/years. It's not really fair to enforce seven calender years on the players.

[[Q]]

All-Defensive Team
1st Team:
C-Olajuwon
F-Rodman
F-Pippen
G-Payton
G-Stockton

2nd Team:
C-D Robinson
F-Marion
F-Kirilenko
G-Jordan
G-Dennis Johnson

this is just off the top of my head, so I'm probably forgetting someone
Ben Wallace & Ron Artest were really close, but didn't quite make the cut. I also considered putting Kidd in there at one point

[Patr1ck]

Michael Cooper.
Eddie Jones? Not really sure.
Dikembe.

Fuck your rules Bunji. They derail your own threads before they begin.

[Andrew]

1. Scottie Pippen

Have to give it to Pip. A lot of the time he had the toughest assignment on those Bulls championship teams and made superb use of his length, athleticism and defensive instincts. As versatile defensively as he was offensively, he gets my top spot.

2. Dennis Rodman

I was actually tempted to put Rodman first because in addition to his amazing rebounding numbers, at one point in his career he could feasibly defend all five positions on the court. Rebounding aside though, Pip had better numbers and was still being called upon to guard the opponent's best player late into his career, so I'll go with the second spot for The Worm.

3. Gary Payton

The Glove was a fantastic defender, causing headaches for some of the best guards in the game, even when he was giving up a few inches and at least 20 pounds. One of the best "thieves" in the game, great anticipation, timing and footwork.

4. Michael Jordan

It's hard to call Michael Jordan underrated but when it comes to his defense, I think it's true at times due to it being overshadowed by his offensive game and highlight plays. Pip took on the tough assignments on those Bulls teams but Jordan was no slouch himself on defense. I'm tempted to rank him higher based on his defensive skill and stats, but Pippen was there to take the pressure off and the more difficult assignment. Still, I'll rank him fourth.

5. Hakeem Olajuwon

One of the game's best shot blockers, also racking up a lot of steals for a centre while anchoring the Rockets' defense throughout his prime. Like MJ, I feel his defensive prowess is a little overlooked because the first thing that comes to mind his the way he abused defenders at the other end with his repertoire of post moves, but I'd deem him a top five defender during the era.

6. David Robinson

His numbers aren't that far off The Dream's and being one of the most athletic bigs of the era in addition to a smart defender made him a beast at the defensive end.

7. Ben Wallace

Great numbers in his prime, multi-time Defensive Player of the Year, could hold his own (and then some) against much bigger players and wasn't too shabby defending smaller, quicker players as well.

8. Kevin Garnett
9. Tim Duncan

I went back and forth with KG and Duncan, as I do in pretty much every list that involves them. I'm going with KG here though; both have great stats and are two of the top defenders of the era, but I feel Garnett is the more versatile defender, being a little more adept at guarding smaller players. (Insert reference to "I cannot BELIEVE my starting five!" here).

10. Bruce Bowen

Given the way he was able to bother some of the best scorers in the game and force them into some very ordinary nights, he could arguably rank higher. However, I have to admit that I'm leaving him at ten because of the dirty stuff, which I feel he sometimes relied on in lieu of defensive skill. His numbers aren't necessarily eye-popping either. Still, he was actually a skilled defender and one of the toughest in the past decade, I believe he has to at least crack the top ten so here he is.

Next Five: Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Ron Artest, Alonzo Mourning, Michael Cooper

Also deserve a mention: Andrei Kirilenko, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Shawn Marion, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, Dennis Johnson, Maurice Cheeks, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dwight Howard, Eddie Jones, Robert Parish.

[rise]

LeBron, Wade, and Gerald Wallace definitely need an honorable mention, but I agree with basically what's been said already.

[NovU]

1) Tim Duncan

2) David Robinson

3) Lebron James

4) Dennis Rodman

5) Patrick Ewing

6) Scottie Pippen

7) Michael Jordan

8) Dwight Howard

9) Bruce Bowen

10) Dwayne Wade

[[Q]]

hmm, curiously Bowen's name came up and I personally thought Battier & Raja Bell were better 1 on 1 defenders. Bowen got the media attention because he won rings

[Andrew]

Forgot about Battier and Bell. I'd probably have to at least put them in my Next Five, bumping Mourning and Cooper into the next tier. Tough call.

Really, NovU? LeBron James, the third best defender of the modern era, ahead of Pippen and Jordan? Ewing ahead of Hakeem and KG? Bold claims.

[NovU]

Hehe. I was half asleep when I made the list. Forget that. Will come up with a new one later. But Lebron is a great defender imo. Perhaps his man to man defense leaves little to be desired but his team defense I think is superb. His size and blocking ability brings big man impact to the game unlike other players at his position. To back it up, his teams were great defensive teams all his career long. And he was the best player on both ends of the floor for all those teams.

[Axel The Great]

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Gary Payton
4. David Robinson
5. Ben Wallace
6. Michael Jordan
7. Dikembe Mutombo
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Andrei Kirilenko
10. Shane Battier

Honorable Mentions: Patrick Ewing, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen, Dwight Howard, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Joe Dumars, John Stockton

[shadowgrin]

To back it up, his teams were great defensive teams all his career long.

Because the coaches' emphasis were on defense rather than offense. You're basically saying that LeBron is responsible for his teams being good at defense.

His size and blocking ability brings big man impact to the game unlike other players at his position

lol at that. What does that even mean?

Since we're throwing out words that make no sense or basis, I might as well post some highlights videos..

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[benji]

Probably should have split this into anchors and perimeter players.

[Mavs4Life]

I felt like I put this in a horrible order, but here it is...

1. Hakeem
2. Pippen
3. Rodman
4. Jordan
5. Wallace
6. Payton
7. Robinson
8. Duncan
9. KG
10. Mutumbo

[shadowgrin]

Probably should have split this into anchors and perimeter players.

That's what you get for not planning properly, unlike Batman.

[NovU]

To back it up, his teams were great defensive teams all his career long.

Because the coaches' emphasis were on defense rather than offense. You're basically saying that LeBron is responsible for his teams being good at defense.

This thread which I read before should have clouded my judgement in quickly coming up with a list on top of my head. Anyways, I think he's a great defender. And defense really is more of a subjective topic than offense I think.

[Andrew]

I'd suggest lists of perimeter and post/paint defenders, but I believe Rodman would have to occupy a high spot on both.

[[Q]]

well i did it in a "team" format to give perimeter players & point guards a chance to make it. I didn't really want to make a list of 10 centers who led the league in blocks

[Andrew]

I liked that approach too, though the All-Defensive teams aren't selected by position. By that criteria I'd just suggest my top ten for my All-Defensive teams of the era. If we're picking by position:

First Team

C: Hakeem Olajuwon
F: Dennis Rodman
F: Scottie Pippen
G: Michael Jordan
G: Gary Payton

Second Team

C: David Robinson
F: Tim Duncan
F: Kevin Garnett
G: Jason Kidd
G: John Stockton

[adv1s5]

defensive ability is such a hard thing to quantify, isn't it? i think blocks and steals make up such a small percentage of defense. do they have things like affected field goal percentage for players before 2000?

people know michael cooper as the "defensive guy" on the lakers who larry bird said was the toughest defender he faced. i can't find any stats to support his defensive ability, but is it right to keep him from consideration because of this? same with sidney moncrief.

being on the all-defensive team also doesn't seem to have any real significance to it. kobe's been voted on the first all-defensive teams 9 times, but nobody has put him on their list (not arguing there). kobe can play excellent defense, but he rarely does.

i know my list would start with hakeem, then pippen, then payton. anything after that is up in the air.

[rise]

1. Olajuwan
2. Duncan
3. Pippen
4. Garnett
5. Payton
6. Jordan
7. Robinson
8. James
9. Rodman
10. Howard

Also:
Wade, Ben Wallace, Gerald Wallace, Ewing, Kirilenko, Marion, Cooper, Mourning, Bell.

[kAmilli LakeShow]

I liked that approach too, though the All-Defensive teams aren't selected by position. By that criteria I'd just suggest my top ten for my All-Defensive teams of the era. If we're picking by position:

First Team

C: Hakeem Olajuwon
F: Dennis Rodman
F: Scottie Pippen
G: Michael Jordan
G: Gary Payton

Second Team

C: David Robinson
F: Tim Duncan
F: Kevin Garnett
G: Jason Kidd
G: John Stockton

Were Stockton and J Kidd really that good as defensive players? I got into NBA too late to catch either in their prime, i always wondered that? Like was J Kidd better than Kobe (fanboy pick), Raja Bell, Kirilenko who played some guard, Clyde Drexler?

[kAmilli LakeShow]

After watching links Shadow posted i think Pippen is the best defender ever, just UNBELIEVABLE - Length, Refex, Desire - all in one

[benji]

Kidd was the best defensive player on a series of league leading defenses and far better than a Kobe or Raja Bell.

Stockton has one of the ten best steal rates in league history and finished in the top three in the league for seven straight seasons. He was also a key player on a series of defensively dominant Jazz teams.

[kAmilli LakeShow]

Kidd was the best defensive player on a series of league leading defenses and far better than a Kobe or Raja Bell.

Stockton has one of the ten best steal rates in league history and finished in the top three in the league for seven straight seasons. He was also a key player on a series of defensively dominant Jazz teams.

Thanks for the reply, i just honestly din't know that

[deihatein]

Where would you put Shawn Marion in this list benji? I think he deserve at least a honorable mention.