Pippen: MJ best scorer, LBJ best player, to ever have played

[chaodck]

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/05/27/pippen-mj-best-scorer-bron-best-player-to-ever-play-the-game/

Wow!! What a line from Scottie Pippen. Just read the article and was shocked by the headline, but actually the saying has some ground (some, at least).

First all, I'm a James fan, I've ever been his fan, I think he currently is the best player in the league.
Second, I'm a Jordan fan, the reason I started watching, then playing, and now the reason I love basketball is for this guy, he IS the greatest in history IMO.

Having that said, Pip makes some good points. LeBron sure is a more complete player. He is a better passer, a better rebounder, and a better vertical defender (with a little help from that 2-inch, 35-pound advantage LBJ has over MJ), and a better physical player, but LeBron falls short to MJ in being worse at horizontal defense and at shot creation.
I had a discussion with my brother about this, this morning, and came with the idea that the game has changed since MJ played it. It's now a more physical game, whereas in the late 80's-mid 90's it was more of a talent game. And this is where LBJ shines, he is the most impossing physical player at his position, and maybe one of the most physical impossing players in the league. My bro' said, "if Jordan played today, he'd probably be a physical presence too, he would've changed his style, in order to fit the league".

This makes a common discussion, that has been made in soccer lately, where you have a more talented player (Lionel Messi) and a more physical player (Cristiano Ronaldo), we could probably say that CR7 is a more complete player, but Lionel Messi is undoubtedly the best player in the world.

Having that said, and aside statistical analysis (which I know isn't everything in basketball), LeBron is still missing many of the things that made MJ the best ever. Intangibles mainly, James lacks the clutch MJ had (even though he has stepped up this postesason), he lacks the desire to win, that force that drived MJ forward, and he lacks, of course the individual and team accolades, Jordan had.

That's my humble opinion,
Alfonso.

PD: When I first read the headline I though, whaaaat??? Is Pip drunk??? I want to have what he's having please!!

[Andrew]

As I said in the Bulls thread, I would respectfully disagree with Pippen on this point, though glancing at some comments on Twitter and on various blogs that have mentioned it, it seems Heat fanboys are really lapping it up and stating it as fact simply because it's Pippen saying it. Of course, Pippen once also claimed he'd have won rings without MJ, so he has a penchant for making bold claims that we can't necessarily take as fact.

EDIT: Pippen backpedals slightly on Twitter:

Don't get me wrong, MJ was and is the greatest. But LeBron could by all means get to his level someday.

[hova-]

He added a probably and used the subjunctive:

“Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to play the game,” Pippen said. “But I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he is so potent offensively

Guys should be allowed to say things like that. He played together with MJ, so who else should know it better. I doubt it though and I think he already regrets saying it on the media because it's really a bold statement.

It makes no sense to compare a player who is 26 (or 27? dunno) with Michael Jordan. If LeBron plays as good at the age of 36 as Jordan did, he definitely has a chance of topping him, given that he gets at least five or six rings.

Right now, for me personally, LBJ is not on a level with Jordan and some other Hall of Famers out there. He's lacking success and still has some flaws in his game.

[shadowgrin]

I had a discussion with my brother about this, this morning, and came with the idea that the game has changed since MJ played it. It's now a more physical game, whereas in the late 80's-mid 90's it was more of a talent game. And this is where LBJ shines, he is the most impossing physical player at his position, and maybe one of the most physical impossing players in the league. My bro' said, "if Jordan played today, he'd probably be a physical presence too, he would've changed his style, in order to fit the league".

I wish more people would realize this when comparing players from different eras. Say, Shaq vs. Wilt.
Also, suggest to your brother to see some games of the 80's Pistons or 90's Knicks.

[koberulz]

the game has changed since MJ played it. It's now a more physical game

What.

[hova-]

I guess he means that you have like 8 of 10 guys on the court who are at least athletic and/or physical presences. (which means they can lift weights, jump high etc).

What you understood was probably that there was less beating and contact on the court without the whistle during Jordan's area, which is for sure not correct.

You both are right.

[chaodck]

Yea, what I meant by that, is that the game right now is dominated by players who excel mainly due to their physical presence and athleticism. Players are taller (in average) and stronger, examples of these are Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Derrick Rose, Dwayne Wade, Joakim Noah, Andre Iguodala, Gerald Wallace, Ben Wallace, George Hill, Russell Westbrook, Amar'e Stoudemire, Rajon Rondo, Corey Maggette, Glen Davis, etc.

In the past, specially in the "smaller" positions (SF, SG, PG) players excelled due to their talent and ability, rather than their physical prowess.

[Sauru]

mj was a far superior defender to james no contest imo

[Andrew]

He played together with MJ, so who else should know it better.

That's not necessarily true. For a start he never played with LeBron, so he has no basis for first hand comparison and even if he had played a year or two with him at the end of his career, that wouldn't automatically make his analysis infallible. Nor does his status as an NBA great; plenty of former stars have done TV work or held positions in NBA front offices and demonstrated that while they had what it takes to be a great player, they don't necessarily do a good job of evaluating talent in others.

[NovU]

Talking about 2nd best always bores me as there is always the clear cut best Kobe the GOAT.

But... MJ played in the era where scoring came hard and physical plays were allowed. He dominated the whole league and won 6 championships with him being the centerpiece. I think that alone outweighs Bron's acomplishments so far. Thus my vote is with MJ all the way.

[benji]

It's worth noting that Jordan played in essentially two separate eras. He started during the freewheeling eighties where there were great defenders and defenses but their team goals were to score points first and pushed pace. Then he played and won in the post-Bad Boys deadball plus expansion plus shit drafts era where people like Riley and Fratello interpreted the Pistons success as coming entirely from defense and thuggery so they started roughing people up and slowing the pace to a disgusting crawl to gain advantage from the fact they were playing in an era where there wasn't enough raw talent.

I actually think if we take comeback Jordan and put him in the game today he'd likely still be worth 15+ wins like LeBron and co, but if we take late 80s Jordan give him all the various science advancements he'd probably still be the best player in the league easily.

Factor in that, playing against actual competitive talent at his position, unlike how he spent the 90s beating up on inferiors, people like LeBron/Kobe/Wade/etc. would drive his obsessive competitiveness to try and match and surpass them. Jordan easily could have packed on more size as he did post-comeback but it wasn't part of the culture; you wanted slim guards who could be more in motion outside on the perimeter not hulking beasts who barrel to the basket over and over off an isolation.

mj was a far superior defender to james no contest imo

Which Jordan?

[NovU]

Jordan farmar. I am sorry but Sauru forgot to take morning medicine this morning.

Anyways, great points by benji again. Couldn't agree more.

[Martti.]

Stephen A Smith

And I agree with him.

[Andrew]

They started out OK but then they went...well, ESPN. Kind of entertaining though.

[benji]

I'm contractually and morally required to disagree with Stephen A. Smith no matter what he says.

Of course I'm required to do the same with Skip Bayless.

So I get to pick, and Smith raping Bayless about 1994 requires him to get the point no matter what else was said.

Do people want to watch these two guys? I've always assumed it's some hatred a CEO at ESPN has of sports but loves his payment so he puts them on TV as this long con vendetta.

I mean, how else can I explain Michael Wilbon showing up everywhere.

[Murat]

Disagree on that.

MJ the best. Who is LBJ?

[benji]

Lyndon Baines Johnson.

[Killer Crossover aka OG]

Disagree on that.

MJ the best. Who is LBJ?

MJ is snow from yesterday (History), so LeBron more the Future

[shadowgrin]

Fratello...slowing the pace to a disgusting crawl to gain advantage from the fact they were playing in an era where there wasn't enough raw talent.

lol, I love watching his Cavs team. He would have players really slow down everything like waiting for 3-4 seconds before inbounding the ball (before the 5 second violation) or crossing the half court line after 6-7 seconds have lapsed (to avoid the 10 second violation). Even after a defensive rebound, Terrell Brandon and others wouldn't run a fast break. All the players were on shackles.
Even tried it on NBA Live.

[Christian.]

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=6701584&top&wjb=

[Sideshow Bob]

I dont think LeQuit is G.O.A.T maybe of his Draft class and the 2000 era... But All-Time not even close I'd say Shaq.

[benji]

I dont think LeQuit is G.O.A.T maybe of his Draft class and the 2000 era... But All-Time not even close I'd say Shaq.

Elliott,

When's your next book coming out? Do you still have a job?

[Sideshow Bob]

Wha???

[Andrew]

Merged into the first thread, might as well keep it all in one.

I'm not surprised to see Pip back further off on that claim, though I cringe a little at the "taken out of context" remark. His use of the word "may" was overlooked somewhat but the suggestion was still pretty clear and to that end I feel he jumped the gun on it following the series with the Bulls.

[NovU]

But All-Time not even close I'd say Shaq.

Shaq who?