The Case Before The Court: Larry Bird v. Kobe Bryant

[benji]

What's this? A barebones OP? Yeah, deal with it. The nature of this thread requires it as I don't want to squash the thread from the get-go with my MASSIVE MOUNDS OF RESEARCH!

Anyway, Shadow suggested this in THE DEBATE THREAD: TOPICS which you didn't participate in. And I like it as a debate.

But I am benji, so here's a bit of junk to throw out to get things rolling.

Larry Bird: 3 MVPs in a row, 2 Finals MVPs, 12 All-Star Games, '80 ROY, '82 All-Star Game MVP, 9 All-NBA First Team, 1 Second Team, 3 All-Defensive Second Teams

24.3/10.0/6.3/1.7/0.8 per game for career
22.8/9.4/6.0/1.6/0.8 per 36 for career
23.8/10.3/6.5 in the playoffs for career

During his seven year prime: 24.5/9.5/6.0/1.7/0.8 per 36 with 14.5 WS per year, average PER of 25.3, ORtg of 117 and 101.8 total win shares.

MVP Award Shares Top Five Finishes: 9
PER Top Five: 6 (All Top Three)
PER Number One: 2
Win Shares Top Ten: 9 (2 as number one, 5 top three)
Win Shares per 48 Top Ten: 7 (2 as number one, 6 top three)

Playoff leads: Win Shares 2x ('84 and '86), WS/48 ('84), DWS ('81, '82, '84), PER > 21 ('81, '84, '86, '87)

Four Peak Years - Regular Season:
1984-85: 26.1/9.5/6.0 per 36, 119 ORtg, 26.5 PER, .238 WS/48
1985-86: 24.5/9.3/6.4 per 36, 117 ORtg, 25.6 PER, .244 WS/48
1986-87: 24.9/8.2/6.8 per 36, 121 ORtg, 26.4 PER, .243 WS/48
1987-88: 27.6/8.5/5.7 per 36, 121 ORtg, 27.8 PER, .243 WS/48

Two Peak Years - Playoffs:
1983-84: 27.5/11.0/5.9 per game, 120 ORtg, 26.3 PER, .236 WS/48
1985-86: 25.9/9.3/8.2 per game, 127 ORtg, 23.9 PER, .263 WS/48

Kobe Bryant: 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVPs, 12 All-Star Games, 3 All-Star Game MVPs ('02, '07, '09), 8 All-NBA First Teams, 2 All-NBA Second, 2 All-NBA Third, 8 All-Defensive First Team, 2 All-Defensive Second Team

25.3/5.3/4.7/1.5/0.6 per game for career
24.8/5.2/4.6/1.5/0.5 per 36 for career
25.5/5.2/4.8 in the playoffs for career

During his seven year prime: 26.6/5.3/4.8/1.6/0.5 per 36 with 12.6 WS per year, average PER of 25.3, ORtg of 113 and 88.5 total win shares.

MVP Award Shares Top Five Finishes: 8
PER Top Five: 4 (2 Top Three)
PER Number One: 0
Win Shares Top Ten: 7 (0 as number one, 0 top three)
Win Shares per 48 Top Ten: 8 (0 as number one, 0 top three)

Playoff leads: Win Shares ('01), PER > 21 ('01, '03, '04, '07, '08, '09, '10)

Three Peak Years - Regular Season:
2002-03: 26.0/6.0/5.1 per 36, 111 ORtg, 26.2 PER, .210 WS/48
2005-06: 31.1/4.7/4.0 per 36, 114 ORtg, 28.0 PER, .224 WS/48
2006-07: 27.9/5.0/4.7 per 36, 115 ORtg, 26.1 PER, .199 WS/48

Three Peak Years - Playoffs:
2000-01: 29.4/7.3/6.1 per game, 116 ORtg, 25.0 PER, .260 WS/48
2007-08: 30.1/5.7/5.6 per game, 113 ORtg, 25.0 PER, .178 WS/48
2008-09: 30.2/5.3/5.5 per game, 117 ORtg, 26.8 PER, .238 WS/48

So, let's debate!

[shadowgrin]

Celtics record before Larry Bird: 29-53 ('78-'79)
Celtics record when Larry Bird joined (rookie yr.): 61-21 (lost ECF), +32 win increase ('79- '80)

Lakers record when Kobe became 'the man' (8th yr.): 34-48 ('04-' 05)
Lakers record the following season: 45-37 (lost 1st rd.), +11 win increase ('05-'06)

Uhm yeah, teammates must be accounted when considering team records/success, but the core of the team during Larry Bird's rookie year were basically the same of that 29-53 team. While Kobe's first year as 'the man', he had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom to work with.

[Sauru]

dont get me started

[benji]

dont get me started

Kobe Bryant: 5 rings.
Larry Bird: 3 rings.

[Jeffx]

Kobe's won more rings than Oscar Robertson and Jerry West. Doesn't mean he's on their level(yet).

[IcemanOutlaw]

very interesting

[Sauru]

Kobe's won more rings than Oscar Robertson and Jerry West. Doesn't mean he's on their level(yet).

actually it does. plus kobe has the nba against him. he is not only playing 5 guys he is playing the refs and scorekeepers too. have you not been listening to benji this last month and a half?

[cyanide]

Larry's the only player in league history to appear as an average joe plucked from a group of trailer trash guys and dominate the NBA with skill and smarts. He can barely jump and run, but he will fuck you up with a bravado of moves, sharp shooting, amazing positioning, and brilliant court awareness. Not only that, he will publicly humiliate you with trash talking if you dare look at him in the eyes.

Kobe's lucky to be born out of a vagina with genes from a former NBA player and trained from birth to become an NBA player. Good thing he has killer determination, but with that, his ego doesn't realize he's a cocky, whiny little bitch. His rings really came from Shaq, and recently, his strong supporting cast constantly had to bail his chucking ass out.

tl;dr: Larry will take a wide open jumper and make it. Kobe will do a fadeaway three pointer with three guys on him and airball it.

Larry made Magic and Jordan look bad. Kobe fought with Chris Childs.

QED

Bird > Kobe

Edit: Jeffx has a point below. I should say Larry is average looking who happened to be very tall.

[Jeffx]

I wouldn't call Larry an "average Joe". Dude was 6'9", 225 when he played.

[MassimoV]

dont get me started

Kobe Bryant: 5 rings.
Larry Bird: 3 rings.

Robert Horry : 7 rings
Kobe Bryant : 5 rings

[Andrew]

Let's not forget "Satch" Sanders. Eight rings.

I'd still take Bird. I'd deem him the superior basketball mind, just an incredibly savvy player on the court. And unless they've been lost to the fog of nostalgia, there aren't too many stories of him shooting the Celtics out of the game (or near enough) in big games.

[Sauru]

bird never needed artest to save his ass in game 7 thats for damn sure

[Jeffx]

Some fans want to put Kobe up there with the NBA Immortals(Wilt, Jordan, Oscar,Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, West). Sorry, I can't do that yet. I'll judge him when his career's done.

[Jeffx]

Edit: Jeffx has a point below. I should say Larry is average looking who happened to be very tall.

Tall with athletic skills. Of course Larry wasn't the athlete Jordan was, but he still had game.

[Martti.]

Sauru, don't get koberulz started again.

I'd pick Bird over Kobe any day.

[shadowgrin]

Kobe won't need to throw a chucker against Bird. Kobe will blow past Bird with ease and slam it.

[Axel The Great]

Tell that to Sauru.

[Andrew]

I'm guessing we're not talking one-on-one, so he'd still run into the rest of the Celtics' defense.

[Axel The Great]

Like Bill Russell? Even though he played way before Bird's time, but then again, we're not talking about time periods either so...

[benji]

Robert Parish and Kevin McHale.

Bird wouldn't be guarding him anyway.

[IcemanOutlaw]

i still take Bird. Lucky for Kobe there is no hand checking and no rough play today.

[shadowgrin]

Just in case anyone doubts Bird's athleticism:

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See the block at 1 minute mark.

[benji]

If you're going to post a bunch of Larry Bird videos, you have to post these passing videos.

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[shadowgrin]

Deliberately ignored it since if I included passing that would be an unfair argument against Kobe. Trying to equal the debate that way.

[benji]

If you don't post a defense of Kobe not shooting in the fourth quarter of a game seven I don't know if I can take your newfound love seriously.