To Kobe Haters - GET OVER IT.

[NNpF]

I can't say he sucks and I never did, I hate him as well but I know he can do more amazing things than anybody ever could.

And even though he is amazing I have one thing to say: There will never be another Jordan.

Whether Kobe turns out to be as good or even better than Jordan at anytime during his career, I want people to stop comparing to Jordan, there was only one Jordan, nobody will ever possess what Jordan had.

But I agree with you, nobody can say Kobe sucks, because he certainly doesn't, but neither Kobe, nor LeBron, nor T-Mac can ever be compared to Jordan no matter what they achieve.

If you're not convinced he's good, then you're on the same level as bestclubowner.

lol...don't bring him into the conversation.

[Sauru]

"Kobe has indeed accomplished more than Jordan did by the time he was 26 years old. Was Jordan better when he was 26 (and 25, and 24, etc...) than Kobe Bryant? Absolutely. Had he accomplished more? Not at all. If you take into account Kobe's 3 rings (Where as Jordan had none), it's quite logical to say Kobe is more accomplished. "

if you put jordan on a team with the current best center in the nba he would have had 3 rings by that time also. jordans won 6 rings and 6 finals mvp's. when kobe wins atleast 1 finals mvp you can try to compare the 2.

[Sauru]

you miss my point. you name what jordan had and what bird had, but guess what, they were the best players on those teams, the rest were back up to them. in the case of the lakers kobe was the back up.

[Riot]

Kobe also came straight from high school and is in his 6-7th year in the league where as Jordan was only in his 2nd year or so. So Kobe has the experience over Jordan.

[Sauru]

he also didnt have to contend with both the celtics and pistons like jordan did. both those teams are better than any team in the nba now.

[tsherkin]

I won't do the statistical breakdown this time but if this thread persists, I will.

Kobe, IMO, will never even TOUCH the level that Jordan was on. He will never even see it on the horizon except in his dreams. Jordan did things that Kobe simply is incapable of doing.

That said, Kobe is one of the two best guards in the league. He is a phenomenal player when he isn't playing like a bull-headed idiot and forcing everything through double- and triple-coverage, when he gets it through his head to pass to his teammates.

Kobe's problem IS that he came from HS. He came from a situation where he was top dog into a situation where he wasn't and his young, immature mind rebelled, even as the successes piled up. It's among the reasons the Lakers looked so vulnerable during the '02 championship, failed to make the Finals in '03 and were taken out by Detroit this past season.

Kobe's got game, there's no doubt about that. He's one of the best one-on-one players in the league, capable of driving by just about anyone. He has strong athleticism (though not nearly the same as Jordan possessed, not in terms of vertical or quickness) and can get a shot any time. His problem is he doesn't know when it is time to get a shot off and when to pass it, and he is seemingly incapable of distinguishing between good and bad shots.

Kobe can shoot the three better than Jordan did. He's a strong, clutch player after the same fashion as Jordan (though not as prolific). He doesn't have the same post game Jordan had (Jordan was better) and he isn't nearly as strong from mid-range as Jordan was. Mind that Jordan, at 40 years of age was able to score 20ppg on 45% and that ppg average accounts for the beginning of the season when he wasn't starting. If he'd started the whole season, he would have averaged like 24ppg. That was almost soley off of post ups and mid-range game, with very little driving to the hole. Kobe could never do that (or at least not at this stage of his career). Kobe has never shot (and will never shoot) over 50% from the field, the way Jordan did for like the first 9 years of his career. He will never score 3,000 points in a season, like Jordan did in '86-'87 (~37ppg). I honestly doubt Kobe will get 3 more rings because of the strength of the competition in the East and the weak team he has right now.

Kobe will never be the guy who leads the legaue in scoring and takes his team to a championship. He will never win the same number of MVPs as Jordan did. He will never set the voting records for the All-Star game that Jordan did.

Kobe is probably as good a passer as Jordan was but he hasn't made the switch that Jordan made, to being a good teammate. They're comparable in terms of rebounding skill.

The argument that Kobe had Shaq is irrelevant. Every great team has more than one player that is good. Kobe had Shaq, Jordan had Pip, they both had supporting casts that came up big when it counted during the championship runs. They both had the same coach, incidentally.

The argument that at this age, Kobe has accomplished more (earlier in his career) than Jordan is also irrelevant. Jordan had no team when he came into the league, or at least nothing like what Kobe had. Kobe came into the league straight onto a team with Shaq. Jordan had what remained of George Gervin, a bunch of coke-addicts and some scrubs. And Orlando Woolridge and Cliff Levingston. He needed to get a team together before he could win and it's not his fault it took until '89 (Grant and Pippen) before anything got going (Craig Hodges, John Paxson, Bill Cartwright, etc).

Kobe has a similar array of skills as Jordan did but he is not as proficient in those skills as Jordan was and he is not the same athlete Jordan was. He is also possessed of an inferior attitude. He needs to turn that corner that Jordan did before he can even honestly hope to reach the level that Jordan did.

Look, Kobe's good, there are like two other players in the league right now as good as he: Shaq and T-Mac. Period.

Shaq is more dominant than Kobe is. He's higher percentage. That's the nature of the big man. Good big man are the heart of almost every championship ever won in the NBA. Think about it, look it up. I'm not wrong. Mikan, Russell, Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, McHale, Parish, Kareem, Olajuwon, Shaq, David Robinson, Tim Duncan.

And I'm not listing some players.

Even the Pistons ('89, '90, '04) had Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman, Ben and Rasheed Wallace. The Bulls? Bill Cartwright (a former 20/10 player), Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman.

Not the same caliber as those above, no, but All-Stars nonetheless.

T-Mac is more athletic than Kobe and possessed of all the same tools. He lacks the drive that Kobe has (motivation and intensity) but is a better teammate. They're comparable players.

I don't want to knock Kobe but Charles Barkley said it, man. What was it? "I've seen Kobe play and I saw Jordan play. It ain't even close."

And he's right.


EDIT - Sauru brings up another good point: When the Lakers won their championships, they faced Indiana, Philadelphia and New Jersey.

They went 4-1 against Philly, swept New Jersey and went 4-2 against Indiana. None of those teams were anywhere NEAR the same talent level as the teams Jordan faced off against early in his career.

Detroit, Boston, LA, Philadelphia, balls even Cleveland was good back then. The Lakers were a dynasty back then too and so was Boston. The Celtics were thronging in another era of Boston dominance. What was Jordan going to do against a team that featured Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Danny Ainge, Dennis Johnson... and so on, and so on.

Or a Lakers team that broke down like Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Silk, Michael Cooper, Byron Scott... etc, etc.

Or a DETROIT team that went Isiaiah, Mark Aguirre, Joe Dumars, Bill Laimbeer, Dennis Rodman... etc, etc, etc.

Or an Atlanta team that had Dominique Wilkens. Or a Dallas team in the 5 year span where Roy Tarpley was a 20 and 10 player? Houston when it had Olajuwon and Sampson? New York at the beginning of the Patrick Ewing era? They were big enemies of the Bulls even in the 90s. Philadelphia when it put up one the greatest teams of all time in '83? Portland during the beginning of the Clyde era? Utah during some of the best years they saw with Mark Eaton, Karl Malone and John Stockton (and Adrien Dantley, IIRC)..

Crap, man, the teams in the 80s would ALL rough up the teams of today, with few exceptions. The talent level back then made the competition murderously difficult! There's a reason that between the '79-'80 season and the '89-'90 season only four teams won championships: Boston, the Lakers, Detroit and Philadelphia were all just THAT good.

[beau_boy04]

Here's my 2 cents on the topic...

Kobe is not like Mike... Mike is not like Kobe either. They are very different. Kobe is 10000 miles away from Mike greatness. Yes, kobe has indeed accomplished more than Jordan at the age of 26. If you would've paired up MJ with the best center of that time he would've got more than 3 titles... It took some time for Kobe to deliver and thats because he came out right out of high school which is understandable.

Kobe hasnt won a Final MVP because Shaq was the main guy and attraction in the Lakers team.

If Kobe wants to be one of the great he MUST bust his ass off to lift up the Lakers and take them to the post-season. I think the Lakers now is more talented than last season....there are a lot of new faces and they need some chemistry to find success. Kobe needs to be the man for the Lakers this season. I really needs to hit the gym and prepare himself for this coming up season.

Kobe carried the Lakers when Shaq was injured. I remenbered that lapse of consecutive 40+ pts streak kobe had a couple of years ago.

MJ most of the times succedded when the team needed him ( 6 rings ), Kobe didnt pull it off this past Finals... he missed very cluth shots but I understand he's still developing into a great player and because of all is off-court issues.

Thank you.

[Andrew]

Was Jordan better when he was 26 (and 25, and 24, etc...) than Kobe Bryant? Absolutely. Had he accomplished more? Not at all. If you take into account Kobe's 3 rings (Where as Jordan had none), it's quite logical to say Kobe is more accomplished.

He had achieved more as an individual. At the same age, Michael Jordan had led the league in scoring three times, had been named Rookie of the Year, league MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, All-Rookie First Team (as well as All-NBA Second Team in his rookie year), All-NBA First Team (three times), scored a record 63 points in a playoff game, took home All-Star MVP honours and had a season in which he averaged 32.5 ppg, 8 rpg and 8 apg. He also led the league in steals in 1988 and was among the leaders in every season from 84-89 except for 1986. He also became the first player to total at least at least 200 steals and 100 blocks, something he did two years in a row. He had also led his team to the Conference Finals.

Kobe's stats and personal accomplishments aren't quite as lengthy, though as you noted he does have those three rings. But two factors must be taken into account. He entered the league at the age of 17 and he joined a team that was already a perennial playoff team in a good position to contend for the title; immediately. I know, I'm heading towards a "What If" or maybe an "If Only", but the fact he entered the NBA at such a young age joining a team that was only a couple of years away from winning a title does somewhat account for the success he's enjoyed by the age of 26. Most players don't enter the league before they're 18, thus they are generally older when they start making their mark on the league.

But perhaps even more significant is the fact that Kobe has only been at his current level for the last two or three years, whereas MJ has over a decade of excellence to his credit - he maintained an incredibly high standard for a long time, as have all the truly great players in NBA history.

I feel that Kobe has to play a little longer and sustain a level of excellence for a number of years before he can truly be considered close or better than Michael Jordan, or for that matter Magic Johnson or Larry Bird or any other great you care to name; though MJ is the most common comparison.

Kobe hasn't had a season that comes close to MJ's best statistical year, he has not had to lead a team as MJ did and he doesn't have nearly as many individual accomplishments. He does have three rings, but he's never been the most valuable player on a championship team, the key ingredient to the team's success. He cannot boast the number of excellent seasons that MJ can. Make no mistake, Kobe's a great player who has plenty of time to establish himself as one of the great players in history. But in all fairness, he can't be touted as being as great or accomplished as the likes of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem and so on.

And yet, some people suggest that if the Lakers make the playoffs this season, Kobe will eclipse Jordan's accomplishments. To me, that's purely ignorant of what MJ accomplished and what Kobe hasn't yet done. I believe that the fog of memory, fans too young to have seen Jordan in his prime as well as the notion that MJ was grossly overrated have actually left MJ somewhat underrated - his accomplishments seem to be condensed and ignored.

I would say the same about Bird and Magic when comparing them to Kobe. Kobe's at a level where comparisons can be drawn, predictions can be made and names can be mentioned in the same breath, but he's still not that close to equalling or eclipsing these great players when all statistics and accomplishments are listed and compared.

[Stevan]

Demilioso you called Kobe a little bitch, but the "haters" are the people who don't think he's on Michael Jordan's level? So it's ok for you to call him a little bitch and what not because you concede that he's a great player? I don't see a thread telling the Kobe fans to stop praising their favourite player and saying he'll eventually over take Michael Jordan, which also happens a lot. Don't get me wrong man, you can talk about what ever you want, make any thread you like. But, you can tell the "haters" to shut up when they start with the "adulterer/Jordan impersonator/Shaq's bitch" jokes about Kobe. Even then, they'll do it just to spite you.

This will never stop man, just look at the replies you got about Kobe not being anywhere near Mike in this thread The comparison threads just keep popping up, it's the NLSC

[J@3]

Threads like these always bring out the MJ fans, it can be very quickly turnt into a Jordan thread.

What am I saying? At the NLSC, a thread about ice cream can be turnt into a Jordan thread

[Andrew]

The same could be said for Kobe last season though. Besides, this thread is basically about the comparison so it's inevitable that Jordan's name is going to come up repeatedly.

[J@3]

it's inevitable that Jordan's name is going to come up repeatedly.

Lol bit of an understatement, but either way...



I'm sure that tongue's good for ice cream licking

[Arcane]

I'm sure that tongue's good for ice cream licking

im sure its good for pussy licking

[J@3]

[Matt]

yeah all of the above + MJ took Kobe to school a few times when he played for the Whiz......he absolutely killed him in the post, not bad for an old man, using his athleticism

I still can't get over the fact that Jordan shot 50% many times, man that's unheard of. JO is a PF and shoots closer to the hoop and only shoots @43%

[Steve04]

I believe that the fog of memory, fans too young to have seen Jordan in his prime as well as the notion that MJ was grossly overrated have actually left MJ somewhat underrated - his accomplishments seem to be condensed and ignored.

lmao, Come on Andrew, I know Jordan was your favorite player and all, but who's underrating the best player of all time?

[PRoPuLsiOnDJ]

Kobe will never be the guy who leads the legaue in scoring and takes his team to a championship.

Then how do you explain the 30 ppg he averaged in 2002-2003 season? (In a team where he was "second-fiddle" to Shaq)
And how do you know that he's not capable of taking his team to a championship? He's never even got the chance of being the top guy on his team.

Kobe's problem IS that he came from HS. He came from a situation where he was top dog into a situation where he wasn't and his young, immature mind rebelled, even as the successes piled up.

So if he comes to a situation where he isn't the top dog, and his "young, immature mind rebelled," then how do you explain the 3 straight titles he helped the lakers win so convincibly? So if your theory is correct, he would have rebelled after his first year in the league (because he wasn't the top dog). Or lets take that even further ... he would've rebelled after the Lakers won their first championship ... right? Then if he did rebel, then why did the lakers go an astounding 16-1 in 2001 playoffs? (With the bulls-eye on their back from every team in the league). How do you explain another championship the next year ... where he helped his team knock out the kings after being down 3-2? Where did the rebellion go? Did I miss something? How many teams have won at least 3 straight titles in the history of the NBA? Since you seem to be a basketball fan from back in the 80's you should know that there are only 3 teams: The Celtics, the Bulls, and now, the Lakers.

It's among the reasons the Lakers looked so vulnerable during the '02 championship, failed to make the Finals in '03 and were taken out by Detroit this past season.

You've got to be kidding me ... Kobe's immaturity is among the reasons why the lakers pretty much "failed" the past three years? First of all, in the last 5 years, the Lakers were easily one of the top 2 teams in the league (How does that make them a failure?). And so what if they looked vulnerable in '02? Didn't the Bulls look vulnerable against Indiana in '98 (along with Utah in '97 and '98)? How about some props to the Kings talent? How about some props to other teams who got better because that's the only way they could compete against the Lakers? Can one team really be so strong that they shouldn't even look "vulnerable" in their third straight championship year? Give me a break. Of course the rest of the league is going to catch up. Did you really expect the lakers to win 10 straight titles?

Let me get back on point about the Kobe part. You said that he's among the reasons the Lakers looked so vulnerable right? So how do you explain how "vulnerable" Shaq has made the lakers look every year he's played for them. How do you explain his free throw discrepancy? How do you explain his behavior when he comes into camp out of shape every year and complains that nobody else is stepping up? How do you explain Devean George, who was never able to play defense and Slava Medvedenko and his mediocre style of play? How do you explain the bahavior of the role players not stepping up last year and this year in the finals? If you're gonna bring Kobe into this, then point out the other reasons also. Sure Kobe's made the Lakers look vulnerable too ... but what do you expect him to be? A perfect player? This is a team game .. and you can't point your fingers at one person because his team lost. They win as a team and they lose as a team. Where were all the skeptics when the Lakers actually won the 3 championships? Kobe was doing the same "negative" things then that he is doing now. Then how did they win the title? Simple ... they won as a team. And now, they lost as a team. There is nobody to blame. Nobody ever gives props to the team that beat the Lakers. Nobody ever thinks about the talent of the other team. Couldn't that be a reason that the lakers lost? (The fact that they've had a bullseye on their back for the past 5 years?)

Kobe is probably as good a passer as Jordan was but he hasn't made the switch that Jordan made, to being a good teammate. They're comparable in terms of rebounding skill.

You don't sound so certain there. He's probably as good a passer as Jordan? He IS a good passer ... he averaged over 5 assists a game this year ... he even had some triple doubles. And what do you mean he hasn't made the switch to being a good teammate? What's a good teammate? A player who kisses Shaq's feet when Shaq commands it? If he wasn't such a "good teammate" then they would've never won those three straight titles. They wouldn't even win one!

Kobe has a similar array of skills as Jordan did but he is not as proficient in those skills as Jordan was and he is not the same athlete Jordan was. He is also possessed of an inferior attitude. He needs to turn that corner that Jordan did before he can even honestly hope to reach the level that Jordan did.

I see circular reasoning all over the place here. Kobe is not as proficient in those skills? First of all, what skills are you talking about? Sure there are some skills that Kobe's not proficient at, but there are also skills that Jordan's not proficient at. I just don't understand your reasoning here. Please elaborate.

Next, you're just assuming that Kobe has inferior attitude. How do you know that? And how do you explain that? Inferior attitude? C'mon!!!! Is shooting 2000 times a day in the offseason to prepare for the year ahead inferior attitude? Is being able to make clutch shots in practically any game and under any given situation an inferior attitude? Is the ability to instill fear in the opposing teams' minds inferior attitude? Seriously ... what are you talking about?

Look, Kobe's good, there are like two other players in the league right now as good as he: Shaq and T-Mac. Period.

Why are you putting Shaq in the same league as Kobe? So according to your reasoning ... is Shaq as "proficient" in the skills that Kobe possesses? C'mon ... Shaq can't even do half the things that Kobe can do. How can you compare a guard to a center?

Good big man are the heart of almost every championship ever won in the NBA. Think about it, look it up. I'm not wrong. Mikan, Russell, Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, McHale, Parish, Kareem, Olajuwon, Shaq, David Robinson, Tim Duncan.

And I'm not listing some players.

Even the Pistons ('89, '90, '04) had Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman, Ben and Rasheed Wallace. The Bulls? Bill Cartwright (a former 20/10 player), Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman.

Since you said "every" championship team ... I'll bring Luk Longley into the question. He wasn't that great. And the Bulls still won a three-peat.

T-Mac is more athletic than Kobe and possessed of all the same tools. He lacks the drive that Kobe has (motivation and intensity) but is a better teammate. They're comparable players.

Finally ... the part I've been waiting for!

T-Mac is more athletic? How? What can he do that Kobe cannot do? The off-the-backboard dunk? When has he made the first team all NBA or the first team all defense? Seriously ... I'd like to see your response to this.
And he's a better teammate? hahaha ... you've got to me kidding me dude ... are you serious?
Is a good teammate one who thinks about retirement when his team goes on a 10 game slide? Does a good temmate end his season voluntarily even when there's still 20 games left? Yeah .. sure he's a good teammate.

I don't want to knock Kobe but Charles Barkley said it, man. What was it? "I've seen Kobe play and I saw Jordan play. It ain't even close."

And he's right.

Yeah he's seen kobe and jordan play ... who hasn't? And how does that make him "right"? Did he prove anything? I don't see it ... please show me where.

And just to play along ... here's my little statement:

"I've seen TMac play and I've seen Kobe play. It ain't even close. And I'm right!!"

Sauru brings up another good point: When the Lakers won their championships, they faced Indiana, Philadelphia and New Jersey.

They went 4-1 against Philly, swept New Jersey and went 4-2 against Indiana. None of those teams were anywhere NEAR the same talent level as the teams Jordan faced off against early in his career.

Oh yeah man ... the lakers have to face one team in the playoffs to win the championship. So true man. So true.

Do you hibernate till june every year or something? I don't see Portland on that list ... I don't see the kings, the spurs, the twolves. What do you mean the Lakers had an easy time? None of them were "NEAR" the talent of the teams that Jordan faced? C'mon give me a break. If you're gonna say that, then I could say ... "none of the teams that jordan faced had anywhere "NEAR" the same talent level as the teams Kobe faced off." Like I said before ... these are two different era's and you cannot say that one team is better than the other. The league has changed since then. That's like comparing the 90's bulls against teams that won championships in the seventies. It's all about the environment and every team adapts to the environment. If the lakers that won three championships played in the 80's, then of course they would've adapted to the 80's style of play. What do you think ... they will collapse?

Crap, man, the teams in the 80s would ALL rough up the teams of today, with few exceptions. The talent level back then made the competition murderously difficult! There's a reason that between the '79-'80 season and the '89-'90 season only four teams won championships: Boston, the Lakers, Detroit and Philadelphia were all just THAT good.

Crap man ... how would the teams of the 80s rough up teams of today? Prove it!
Isn't the competition murderously difficult now? Is there no talent level now that makes competition so murderously difficult? There's also a reason that between '90-'91 season and '00-'01 (hell ... lets say 2002-2003 season) only 4 teams won championships. The Bulls, Rockets, Lakers, and Spurs were just THAT good!(Hell ... there were 3 three-peats in that time period ... what does that tell you about the talent???)

[tsherkin]

Kobe will never be the guy who leads the legaue in scoring and takes his team to a championship.

Then how do you explain the 30 ppg he averaged in 2002-2003 season? (In a team where he was "second-fiddle" to Shaq)
And how do you know that he's not capable of taking his team to a championship? He's never even got the chance of being the top guy on his team.

He didn't lead the league in scoring and they didn't win a championship. I fail to see how this example is noteable. Kobe scores to the detriment of his team. In '01, he scored when it counted and got his points in the flow of the team game. That was honestly his best year. In '02, he started a trend that continues to this day, where he "gets his" no matter what happens to the team.

I expect (not "know") that he won't take his team to a championship this year because of the team he's on and because he's not a good teammate.

So if he comes to a situation where he isn't the top dog, and his "young, immature mind rebelled," then how do you explain the 3 straight titles he helped the lakers win so convincibly?

He played very well in the first two championships. I cannot take that away or twist that negatively. He played with the team very well. But look at the '02 championship: It was more than Shaq's injury that hurt them. In the playoffs, Kobe played too much one-on-one ball and passed to Shaq and his other teammates too little.

So if your theory is correct, he would have rebelled after his first year in the league (because he wasn't the top dog). Or lets take that even further ... he would've rebelled after the Lakers won their first championship ... right? Then if he did rebel, then why did the lakers go an astounding 16-1 in 2001 playoffs? (With the bulls-eye on their back from every team in the league). How do you explain another championship the next year ... where he helped his team knock out the kings after being down 3-2? Where did the rebellion go? Did I miss something? How many teams have won at least 3 straight titles in the history of the NBA? Since you seem to be a basketball fan from back in the 80's you should know that there are only 3 teams: The Celtics, the Bulls, and now, the Lakers.

These are good points. I didn't articulate myself properly. When Kobe came into the league, he as brash and arrogant and caused problems with his teammates. Throughout the championship runs, there were ego clashes with Shaq, showing that he wasn't at ease with being the second bananna. Still, he figured it out and played the right way during the first two championships. The Lakers sort of won the championship by accident in '02. The Western Conference playoffs were much more of a trial than they had to be because of the way Kobe played.

You've got to be kidding me ... Kobe's immaturity is among the reasons why the lakers pretty much "failed" the past three years?

Before we get into your retort, let me explain what I mean: They failed to come through on what everyone expected them too. They looked terribly vulnerable in the '03 playoffs. Yes, a four-peat has only been accomplished by the Celtics but if Kobe played the right way, the Lakers could have done it. He didn't. They failed in the playoffs against the Spurs because they played like crap. Kobe was not the ONLY reason for this. It didn't help that Robert Horry woke up and couldn't shoot. It didn't help that Fox was injured, or that no one was making shots. But if Kobe was playing with his head straight, he and the Lakers would have likely overcome that. They were STILL one Robert Horry 3-ball from putting the pressure back on San Antonio, which I suppose is an argument against mine but they looked terribly vulnerable with Kobe forcing the issue every possession, making bad decisions left, right and center.

Didn't the Bulls look vulnerable against Indiana in '98 (along with Utah in '97 and '98)?

It wasn't the same, the Lakers looked like crap because they didn't play well. The Pacers just gave the Bulls a run on pure talent. And you're right, you could say the same about the Kings and the other opponents but add onto that the lack of team play on the part of the Lakers and they looked worse.

Did you really expect the lakers to win 10 straight titles?

No, I expected 4 because it was eminently achievable.

So how do you explain how "vulnerable" Shaq has made the lakers look every year he's played for them.

By stating that it is an irrelevant point. We're talking about Kobe. I've acknowledged that he was not the only issue, so the other issues are moot.

<snip other problems with the Lakers>

All valid points in an argument about why the Lakers failed but we're talking about Kobe and I said he was "among the reasons" so that we wouldn't get into this argument. It doesn't rest solely on Kobe's shoulders, I'm not saying that.

This is a team game

Bingo, and Kobe is one of the worst team players in the league. He's an amazing individual, a star player but until he learns to work with his teammates better and to check his ego, he will never even approach Jordan's level of greatness.

You don't sound so certain there. He's probably as good a passer as Jordan? He IS a good passer ... he averaged over 5 assists a game this year ... he even had some triple doubles.

Talent-wise, I'm sure he has good court vision, he's displayed it before. But he never did anything like that stretch of triple-doubles Jordan ripped off. He is on a comparable level in terms of overall average but not in terms of skill, he's like a step below. Still, he has the potential to be an equal (or *gasp* better) passer if he puts his mind to it.

And what do you mean he hasn't made the switch to being a good teammate? What's a good teammate? A player who kisses Shaq's feet when Shaq commands it? If he wasn't such a "good teammate" then they would've never won those three straight titles. They wouldn't even win one!

No, he made those championships harder, especially the '02 one, by causing a rift inside the lockerroom and by the following:

He outright ignored Shaq in the '04 Finals. He did much the same in '03, a trend he started really getting into in '02 but was present all through the three-peat. Kobe has this thing where he wants to be "The Man" and couldn't accept Shaq as number one.

His other problem is that he makes terrible, terrible decisions. You don't dribble into double- or triple-coverage when you've got an open man to pass to.

I see circular reasoning all over the place here. Kobe is not as proficient in those skills? First of all, what skills are you talking about? Sure there are some skills that Kobe's not proficient at, but there are also skills that Jordan's not proficient at. I just don't understand your reasoning here. Please elaborate.

OK. Kobe isn't as good a mid-range shooter, he isn't as good at reading the defence to know when to drive, when to shoot and when to pass. He isn't as athletic (though that's mostly not something he could change), he isn't the same caliber defender as Jordan was. He can shoot the three better overall (though Jordan hit them when they counted) but he has poor shot selection there.

Next, you're just assuming that Kobe has inferior attitude. How do you know that? And how do you explain that? Inferior attitude? C'mon!!!! Is shooting 2000 times a day in the offseason to prepare for the year ahead inferior attitude? Is being able to make clutch shots in practically any game and under any given situation an inferior attitude? Is the ability to instill fear in the opposing teams' minds inferior attitude? Seriously ... what are you talking about?

I'm talking about all the crap he stirred up warring with Shaq (not that Shaq wasn't at fault here too). I'm talking about the '04 Finals. I'm talking about his unwillingness to pass to Shaq when it was important to, his self-interest. That's poor attitude. He can improve his individual skills all he wants but it doesn't matter, he's Allen Iverson until he can play well with others.

Why are you putting Shaq in the same league as Kobe? So according to your reasoning ... is Shaq as "proficient" in the skills that Kobe possesses? C'mon ... Shaq can't even do half the things that Kobe can do. How can you compare a guard to a center?

Shaq's effect on the game is actually GREATER than that of Kobe's. I can compare a guard to a center because of their impact on their team. Shaq has his faults as Kobe does but if you plop him down in the middle on any team, they become a championship contender. If you do the same with Kobe at the guard position, they become playoff contenders. Good big men are more important and more dominant than good guards. I place them on the same level because of Shaq's age. If we're talking prime Kobe and prime Shaq, I take Shaq every time.

Since you said "every" championship team ... I'll bring Luk Longley into the question. He wasn't that great. And the Bulls still won a three-peat.

You're forgetting the "almost" in front of the "every ."

T-Mac is more athletic? How? What can he do that Kobe cannot do? The off-the-backboard dunk? When has he made the first team all NBA or the first team all defense? Seriously ... I'd like to see your response to this.

He's quicker and has better hops. It doesn't make him a better player (ref. Gerald Wallace) but it is true.

And he's a better teammate? hahaha ... you've got to me kidding me dude ... are you serious?
Is a good teammate one who thinks about retirement when his team goes on a 10 game slide? Does a good temmate end his season voluntarily even when there's still 20 games left? Yeah .. sure he's a good teammate.

I don't mean he's a leader. I never said that. Neither is Kobe. But T-Mac passes to those on his team that can get it done and doesn't hog everything for himself. Sure, he shoots his mouth off. So what? Kobe's an adulterer. T-Mac isn't a leader and I doubt he ever will be but he's still on Kobe's level and a better teammate because he is willing to make the pass before dribbling into double- or triple-coverage and forcing a bricked shot.

Yeah he's seen kobe and jordan play ... who hasn't? And how does that make him "right"? Did he prove anything? I don't see it ... please show me where.

It isn't just that he said that. It's obviously not a full argument. I brought it up because I agree with him. Barkley has played against both of them. I've watched both of them play and I am inclined to agree with his statement.

"I've seen TMac play and I've seen Kobe play. It ain't even close. And I'm right!!"

And you're entitled to your opinion but I disagree with you vehemently.

Oh yeah man ... the lakers have to face one team in the playoffs to win the championship. So true man. So true.

Not what I meant.

Do you hibernate till june every year or something? I don't see Portland on that list ... I don't see the kings, the spurs, the twolves. What do you mean the Lakers had an easy time? None of them were "NEAR" the talent of the teams that Jordan faced?

80s Boston, Philly, Lakers, Hawks, etc >>>> teams of today.

None of the teams from the last 6 years have even approached the level of talent that existed in the 1980s. I could say the same about Jordan's championship years, as well, only the teams that he faced were better than the teams teh Lakers faced.

Crap man ... how would the teams of the 80s rough up teams of today? Prove it!
Isn't the competition murderously difficult now? Is there no talent level now that makes competition so murderously difficult? There's also a reason that between '90-'91 season and '00-'01 (hell ... lets say 2002-2003 season) only 4 teams won championships. The Bulls, Rockets, Lakers, and Spurs were just THAT good!(Hell ... there were 3 three-peats in that time period ... what does that tell you about the talent???)

You honestly want a comparison of the 80s teams to the teams of today?

I'll do it after school because it's going to take a while and I don't have much more time. I'll show you why a team like Boston, with its host of HOFers, would destroy anything the teams of the '00s have to offer.

[cklitsie]

Still hatin'

[Sauru]

It's many of the same arguments used against Kobe that could just as easily go the other way. With Shaq, Kobe averaged 30 PPG. That's great. Now imagine what he'll do as the main option (Or for the "what if" people, what he would have done as the main option the past few years).

actually this could go either way. yes he will be the main option now but also he will draw more attention. i have always said that if you gave iverson a center like shaq his average would go up simply cause you could not throw everyone you had at him to stop him. so kobe could score more this year and maybe he stays where he is, really cant say. i just want to point out that even though he will have the green light to shoot more shots, he will also see more defenders comeing at him. if kobe can increase his assists this season i would be happy, it would show me he is seeing the double and tripple teams and useing his teammates to win. it would show me he is growing as a player.


another thing i just want to say in general. kobe is really good, cant argue that. i would not call him one of the 10 best ever though. i really think people fail to realize just how good the big 3(jordan bird magic) actually were.yeah you can watch films and maybe you are a stat guy and think thats all that matters but really these 3 played the game as close to perfect as i think you actually can.

another thing about the 80's(since you gotta compare era's when comparing players of different era's) they were tougher. i mean this in 2 ways. the first as i said earlier, the 80's was the best era for basketball. i wont get into that now. its the second i wanna talk about. tougher as in, these guys beat the ever living shit out of each other on a daily basis. have any of you ever seen the old boston vs detroit battles(i know you have its a general Q)?. those 2 teams just flat out kicked the crap out of each other. there is another thread about shaq playing dirty( ) , well, in the 80's he would have just been one of the guys, infact he would have been a little softer than most of the guys. guys like bill and dennis from detroit. what about mchale from boston. barkley? these guys just loved to beat each other up. also notice thats its not regular players who were doing the fighting, it was the stars. hell bird would throw a punch at anyone if he had a chance.

so basicly i think kobe is really good and easily one of the top 5 in the nba, though where you rate him is based alot on opinion(i would take him 3rd myself). pure talent wise? i would rate him first with tmac comeing second. imo kobe is far more commited than tmac ever will be so you gotta give it to kobe there. i just dont think he is anyway near the level or a jordan or the others i have mentioned.

[Rens]

The fact you posted this thread means you need to get over it

[tsherkin]

Kobe, top 10 all-time?

Not even close.

In no particular order, a list of players better than Kobe.

Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Wilt Chamberlain
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Julius Erving
George Gervin
Dominique Wilkens
John Havlicek
Kevin McHale
Roy Tarpley before the drugs.
Isiaiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
Clyde Drexler
Shaquille O'neal
Jerry West
James Worthy
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Pete Maravich
Bernard King
Earl Monroe
Clyde Drexler
Nate Archibald
Grant Hill before his injury
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Tim Duncan
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Wes Unseld
Elvin Hayes

I could go on but I have gone on too long already. There are a host of players in the history of the game better than Kobe Bryant.

Kobe is like Top 70 by SLAM's top 75 issue and that sounds about right.

Top 10? Not a chance.

[NNpF]

Look, Kobe's good, there are like two other players in the league right now as good as he: Shaq and T-Mac. Period.

Please stop comparing Shaq and Kobe. The only way you can compare them is statistically. But Kobe and Shaq are two totally different players who play two totally different positions with two totally different stlyes of play.

Nobody can say Shaq is a better guard than Kobe and nobody can say Kobe is a better center than Shaq. I don't understand how you can compare these two? Statistically Shaq is better, and he is also known as the most dominate player to ever play game, Kobe has never had something like that said about him.

On to a different Topic. Kobe is obviously the leader of the Lakers now but they can't go anywhere until he learns to play a team game. If he says to himself,"hmm...my team, I can do whatever I want" they aren't going to win shit. If Kobe doesn't move the ball around or take better shots, well how about putting Tayshaun Prince on him and he will get shut down.

There's another problem about Kobe, Jordan always found a way to score no matter who was guarding him without the help of teammates. However, Kobe can be shut down without using double teams as Tayshaun Prince and Ron Artest have showed you. If Kobe is going to lead a team he will have to find ways around his defender, if he truly wants to be known as the best, getting shut down will not help at all.

[Sauru]

Kobe, top 10 all-time?

Not even close.

In no particular order, a list of players better than Kobe.

Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Wilt Chamberlain
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Julius Erving
George Gervin
Dominique Wilkens
John Havlicek
Kevin McHale
Roy Tarpley before the drugs.
Isiaiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
Clyde Drexler
Shaquille O'neal
Jerry West
James Worthy
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Pete Maravich
Bernard King
Earl Monroe
Clyde Drexler
Nate Archibald
Grant Hill before his injury
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Tim Duncan
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Wes Unseld
Elvin Hayes

I could go on but I have gone on too long already. There are a host of players in the history of the game better than Kobe Bryant.

Kobe is like Top 70 by SLAM's top 75 issue and that sounds about right.

Top 10? Not a chance.

There's really no need counter your ignorance... If you honestly don't believe Kobe is better than any of the players on that list, you really don't know anything about many of those players.

Oh yes, and the fact Kobe will probably play 13 or 14 more seasons... I'm sure that won't lift him any higher either.

just cause he will play a longer career does not mean he is better. you are right to say he will have a great chance to be and most likly will pass many of these players, but right now he is not. i would rank him over grant hill though, he does not belong on that list imo. even if a players career is cut short by injuries you have to take that into account. i mean, bill walton was amazing but didnt get a full career if he had then he would easily made the list, but he didnt so he has to stand with what he did do not what he could have done. i like most of your list though you left off a couple really big names and there is 2-3 names i would put under kobe. other than that its a good list.

[tsherkin]

Kobe, top 10 all-time?

There's really no need counter your ignorance... If you honestly don't believe Kobe is better than any of the players on that list, you really don't know anything about many of those players.

Oh yes, and the fact Kobe will probably play 13 or 14 more seasons... I'm sure that won't lift him any higher either.

I doubt Kobe will play 13 more seasons but I do agree with your final point. I'm talking about this stage of his career. He cannot be considered better than those players... except for Roy Tarpley, that was just a joke.

But seriously, who among those players is Kobe better than (at this stage of Kobe's career)?

Sauru, Grant Hill was a superior player to Kobe Bryant. Kobe WILL pass him in statistical achievements (barring major injury) and individual accomplishments but honestly, I'd prefer a prime Grant Hill over Kobe, despite Kobe being a better shooter.