Solving Hack-a-Shaq

[koberulz]

Suggestion: all off-ball fouls require the resulting free-throws, if any, to be shot underarm.

None of the players will do it voluntarily, because they're more worried about their image than winning goddamn basketball games, so force them to. They'll shoot a decent clip, teams will stop fouling them, and everyone can shut up about it.

Unless they stick with 'normal' technique for on-ball foul free-throws and continue to shoot horribly, in which case everyone will get on their back about that.


Or just introduce FIBA's definition of flagrant/unsportsmanlike fouls, which would make 90% of hack-a-Shaq fouls impossible anyway.

[mp3]

I kind of feel like players should just be able to hit a fair amount of there free throws already but "if" we had to change the rules I would make it that you could only foul the player with the ball on his hands and if they tried to foul a player off ball then it would result in 2 free throws plus a side line ball.

[JaoSming]

Yes, because underarm free throws are more embarrassing than this



and will deter players from listening to their coach's gameplan.


We aren't dumb, officials aren't dumb... everyone can tell when there is a hack-a-____ foul or a basketball play foul. If you are obviously trying to foul a certain player, make it a technical foul, give them a free throw (choose the shooter) and possession back. If they can disguise it as a basketball play and still foul, that's better at least...not as insulting as jumping on someone's back.

I have 0 problems with hacking a poor free throw shooter with the ball but I do think the offense should be able to prevent these fouls by not giving that player the ball on offense.

Hitting or missing free throws isn't the problem, it's just a farce on the rules and making the televised sport less entertaining.

[koberulz]

We aren't dumb, officials aren't dumb... everyone can tell when there is a hack-a-____ foul or a basketball play foul. If you are obviously trying to foul a certain player, make it a technical foul, give them a free throw (choose the shooter) and possession back. If they can disguise it as a basketball play and still foul, that's better at least...not as insulting as jumping on someone's back.

That's basically what the FIBA rule is, except it's two shots to the player fouled and the ball back. If it's not a play for the ball, or whatever the off-ball equivalent is, it's an unsportsmanlike foul (basically a flagrant) automatically. This means you don't see any of the 'hard foul' stuff on guys who have a clear layup, too, and the defender has to actually...y'know, defend.

Hitting or missing free throws isn't the problem, it's just a farce on the rules and making the televised sport less entertaining.

Watching players miss free-throws at the rates we're seeing isn't entertaining either.

Seriously, if you're shooting less than 60% and you're not shooting underarm, get the fuck out of basketball. I'd say 'have some pride', but the problem is it's the wrong kind of pride.

If Dwight and DeAndre just bothered to learn the proper underarm technique they'd be shooting 80% tomorrow. It's seriously that easy. You can pick it up and be shooting decently within minutes. The fact that their coaches are happy to let those points go to waste is just absurd.

[benji]

You're writing like the FIBA rule is different from the NBA rule*. The referees have discretion on what to call and the league clearly doesn't want them calling flagrants when they're just "hack-a-crappy-FT-shooter" which has existed for 50+ years.

*

a. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be unnecessary, a flagrant foul--penalty (1) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.
PENALTY: (1) Two free throws shall be attempted and the ball awarded to the offended team on either side of the court at the free throw line extended.

[koberulz]

But it is different. The FIBA rule:

An unsportsmanlike foul is a player contact foul which, in the judgement of an official is:
 Not a legitimate attempt to directly play the ball within the spirit and intent of
the rules.
 Excessive, hard contact caused by a player in an effort to play the ball.
 Contact by the defensive player from behind or laterally on an opponent in an attempt to stop the fast break and there is no defensive player between the offensive player and the opponent’s basket.
 Contact by the defensive player on an opponent on the court during the last 2 minutes in the fourth period and in each extra period, when the ball is out-of-bounds for a throw-in and still in the hands of the official or at the disposal of the player taking the throw-in.

That first point is entirely absent from the NBA's rule, or at least its application. Anything where you see a player get wrapped up in a hug or something similar would be an unsportsmanlike, absolutely no question, in FIBA. 99% of the stuff I see NBA commentators talk about as a 'good hard foul' would be unsportsmanlike anywhere else in the world.

Even something like this:

phpBB [video]

Commonplace in the NBA, automatic unsportsmanlike internationally.

EDIT: Here's something more like what I was thinking of originally. The NBA has no problem with it, but it falls under the FIBA rule.

phpBB [video]

[NovU]

I am one of those people who support hack a shaq strategy.

It's Drummond's fault for not being a basketball player. He's just a freak of nature and does enough damage as is. Why give him more value to his game for being a sucky basketballer. Dirk on the other hand is beautiful basketballer, and zero of physical freak. Giving advantage to bad basketballer sounds like a bad idea. Let them handle it themselves.

[koberulz]

I honestly think just bringing in the FIBA rule/interpretation on flagrant fouls would fix everything. It'd at least need to be really well-disguised, which eliminates most of the fouling (because it's just impossible) and all of the ugliness.

Yeah, you'd get a lot of whining about soft calls in the first couple of years, but honestly, bearhugging the guy because he beat you and is about to get an open dunk isn't defence, fuck off with that shit.

[Spree#8]

Very overblown problem. And one that wouldn't exist if some dudes would just learn to make a fucking free throw. It's not rocket science. They're supposed to be professional basketball players, you know.

Since it's rare for teams to have an ORtg over 110, we can generally assume that in a vast majority of situations shooting about 55% from the free throw line should be enough to make hacking not worth it (especially when considering the foul trouble it results in). Then consider that many of those awful free throw shooters getting hacked refuse to make adjustment to their technique, routine, etc. to improve. Some have said that they would never shoot underarm, even if it vastly improved their percentages, because it doesn't look pretty. If that's what matters to them, why bail them out?

Being a terrible free throw shooter is a legit basketball weakness that is there for the opponents to exploit, as it should. Prohibit that and you may as well prohibit sagging off of a terrible 3-point shooter, prohibit consciously attacking a poor defender, prohibit exploiting mismatches after switches on defense, and so on. It's just stupid.

[koberulz]

Since it's rare for teams to have an ORtg over 110, we can generally assume that in a vast majority of situations shooting about 55% from the free throw line should be enough to make hacking not worth it (especially when considering the foul trouble it results in).

Your math there overlooks the clock. Getting a stop can take up to 24 seconds, fouling someone can take as little as one. Two made free-throws after a second is better than one made field goal after 20.

Then consider that many of those awful free throw shooters getting hacked refuse to make adjustment to their technique, routine, etc. to improve. Some have said that they would never shoot underarm, even if it vastly improved their percentages, because it doesn't look pretty. If that's what matters to them, why bail them out?

That's pretty much where I was going with my 'make it compulsory to shoot underarm' rule. Because they should be doing it. It's frankly unacceptable that they don't.

[benji]

"why bail them out" and "make it compulsory" aren't really the same thing

Since it's rare for teams to have an ORtg over 110, we can generally assume that in a vast majority of situations shooting about 55% from the free throw line should be enough to make hacking not worth it (especially when considering the foul trouble it results in).

Stat note: Just look at the league ORtg, an average possession is worth 1.044 points this season. So if they shoot 53+% your gain probably isn't worth it unless the team is one of the five in the league that's two or more points per possession above average.

You're really hoping that they miss more than their average. Which I suppose Atlanta got when they started hack-an-Andre from like two minutes into the game and Andre shot 39% over his 18 FTs.

[Spree#8]

Your math there overlooks the clock. Getting a stop can take up to 24 seconds, fouling someone can take as little as one. Two made free-throws after a second is better than one made field goal after 20.

Clock is a concern in late game situations. You can't foul off the ball in the final 2 minutes. So give the ball to your best free throw shooter and you're set. Fouling a good free throw shooter just for the sake of stopping the clock is a desperate measure hoping to keep trading 3 for 2 and rarely succeeds, unless the shooter pulls a Nick Anderson or something. It's been in place for decades, not seeing the problem.

Hacking before that usually isn't primarily meant to stop the clock, but to watch bricks from the foul line. And you can't do it all the time anyway since you'll foul out your entire team if you try.

That's pretty much where I was going with my 'make it compulsory to shoot underarm' rule. Because they should be doing it. It's frankly unacceptable that they don't.

I'm not a fan of that approach, because shooting underarm is no guarantee of anything. They might still suck shooting underarm, perhaps even get worse. My problem is that they refuse to even try it because they don't like how it looks - that's unacceptable. That attitude is one of two reasons I'm very much against bailing them out in ANY way. The other reason, and the more important one, being that teams should have every right to exploit weaknesses of their opponents and prohibiting that removes a major incentive for those guys to improve as basketball players. Brick away, boys.

[[Q]]

I do believe the media makes a bigger deal of this to give them something to talk about, but I think it's okay up to a certain point. When teams are doing for whole quarters in the 1st half, I tend to groan about ti. I turned on the Spurs Rockets game with 5 mins left and the Spurs were down, so it was a legitimate strategy. It didn't work out because they couldn't score on the other end, but still it could have been effective with so many bad FT shooters for the Rockets. Hell, even Harden missed the extra one when they did it within the last 2 minutes lol

[Andrew]

I'm not a fan of Hack-a-Whomever. Sure, make your damn free throws, but at the same time, be prepared to play some damn defense. There's talk about how eliminating the strategy would "reward" poor foul shooters, but seeing as how they'd still have to play the possession, make shots, grab offensive rebounds, and avoid committing any offensive fouls - not to mention make any free throws, if they're awarded through the normal course of the play - it's not really giving them any kind of advantage they wouldn't normally have. It's still going to be a weakness for them, whenever it comes time for them to step up to the line.

On the other hand, the strategy does allow an entire team to get away with not having to play defense on the possession. I don't think poor or unwilling defenders should be rewarded either, nor teams who don't wish to play defense properly. And by properly, I mean playing by the rules of the sport. Missing free throws is not against the rules. Committing fouls, conversely, actually is. You're not supposed to commit fouls, though inevitably it will happen. Of course, the aim is to make free throws, just like any other shot attempt, but again, it's not an infraction to miss them. I agree with Jon, I think it's fine to hack poor free throw shooters with the ball, wrap them up to prevent a basket in the paint, and so on. Fouling away from the ball though, before a player is even across halfcourt, is a cheap tactic. It's not really playing the game, because it's intentionally doing something that's an infraction.

BUT...

But, I certainly concede that it's not a widespread problem. There are only a few players that get targeted by it, and since players can foul out of games, it's not like you can employ it every single time down the floor, throughout the game. I think if anything further was to be done with it, I'd make it illegal in the backcourt. That way, if you want to keep your poor free throw shooter out on the floor and not have to deal with it, they have to hang back beyond midcourt, leaving their team to play 4-on-5 on offense. Since poor free throw shooters tend to be bigs, you'd probably be giving up some post scoring and offensive rebounding opportunities, plus whatever other skills the bad foul shooter brings to the table. Of course, I'd also be fine with not allowing fouls away from the ball at all, while still allowing Hack-a-Whomever on anyone with the ball. Again, it'd be taking the ball out of the hands of the poor free throw shooter and limiting their effectiveness on offense.

[benji]

Don Nelson used to intentionally play 4-on-5 on offense by telling Alton Lister to often stand out towards center court.

[Andrew]

Probably a kindness, at the end of the day. Bad things would happen to Lister when he was in the paint...

[benji]

That'd be a technical these days.

Also, great help D, Chris.

[Andrew]

Conspiracy theory: it was an inside job when it came to Gatling.

[Patr1ck]

That'd be a technical these days.

But he was reaching to help him up. It was quite sportsmanlike. He realized he was too far away and ran back down court.

[koberulz]

Clock is a concern in late game situations. You can't foul off the ball in the final 2 minutes. So give the ball to your best free throw shooter and you're set. Fouling a good free throw shooter just for the sake of stopping the clock is a desperate measure hoping to keep trading 3 for 2 and rarely succeeds, unless the shooter pulls a Nick Anderson or something. It's been in place for decades, not seeing the problem.

But now everyone knows that rule, so teams foul earlier to take advantage of being able to do it.

Even in the national league here, which doesn't have the 'two minutes' rule, you'll sometimes see a coach give the team a player to foul, if they can, long before they're fouling on every possession, because that guy is a bad enough free-throw shooter that it can get you closer.

[Sauru]

i played in a summer league once where the ref called an intentional foul on me because i wrapped a guy up so make him shoot a free throw. the player has the ball and we were down 1 with like 15 seconds to go or something. they gave him 2 shots and the ball and we lost. fucking stupidest shit ever


the league has far bigger problems to worry about before this stupid hack a shaq shit. lets solve flopping and offensive players jumping into defenders first. also start giving players a tech much faster for bitching at the refs. the shit is getting old.

[NovU]

i played in a summer league once where the ref called an intentional foul on me because i wrapped a guy up so make him shoot a free throw. the player has the ball and we were down 1 with like 15 seconds to go or something. they gave him 2 shots and the ball and we lost. fucking stupidest shit ever.

What? That is a standard play for a team down 1 point with little time left on the clock. Did the refs fuck up or simply retarded rule?

[[Q]]

the league has far bigger problems to worry about before this stupid hack a shaq shit. lets solve flopping and offensive players jumping into defenders first. also start giving players a tech much faster for bitching at the refs. the shit is getting old.

or better yet clean up those dirty mofos that continually bring their arms up through the defenders' arms to draw shooting fouls. ahem, james harden.

[mp3]

One of my pet hates is players taking advantage of the landing foul rule when jumpshooting ie sticking out there leg 3 feet to catch the defender as they go by, league is starting to cut that out though.

[NovU]

Memories. I used to intentionally dribble into the path of defender coming from the back to draw fouls. One of my favorite go to post moves was using pump fake then create contact to get separation and calls.

Jumping into defender is not cool but you can't entirely fault them all as a lot of defender actually invade shooters' space in order to contend the shot. In a lot of cases defenders are being idiots, remember Rondo stupidly reaching out him arm inviting for Harden for 3 freebies at the line in last year's playoffs.