Jerry Colangelo takes on role as 76ers adviser

[NovU]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14315 ... operations

So there's a news that 29 other owners intervened and lobbied for this change in 76ers's path as a greatest tanker ever in league history. It looks like the league thought their rebuilding plan was becoming greatly detrimental to the league and something must happen.

So here are some fun questions to answer.

1) Was it right for the league owners to pressure this change?
2) Did you think timing of this change is good for the team or did Hinkie deserve more time(possibly years) to see fruition of his plan?
3) Will Colangelo do good? Is he the right guy?
4) As Hinkie's still in change, will Colangelo drastically change how things are done in Philly?
5) Is this a good move for the 76ers, overall?

Share your thoughts.

[Andrew]

On one hand, you could say that the rest of the league should mind its own business. At the same time, a perpetually floundering team probably isn't good for the league's business, and constantly bottoming out with a rudderless rebuilding plan is taking advantage of a system that's intended to keep the league competitive, and fairly distribute new talent to teams that are struggling and looking to start over. I can't really fault the other 29 owners on that one.

As I said in the other thread, I think the Sixers have had solid intentions with Step 1, as far as trimming the payroll, drafting promising and talented young prospects, and avoiding overpaying veterans just to be mediocre. However, at some point they need to move on to Step 2, and I think Colangelo is someone with the vision to help them with that. It remains to be seen just how big of an impact he'll have, but it certainly can't hurt to have him involved.

[shadowgrin]

Adam Silver is now becoming like that dictator David Stern. This is a legit Jew move.

[mp3]

I was watching the Starters on nba.tv and there opinion that tanking to get batter hasn't really worked in terms that yes you have lots and lots of young talent but no leadership and no direction.

They also hinted that the Sixers may start to look at bringing in some veteran guys next year and that this is all coming from the team owner in his thoughts being that at some point we have to start trying to win games.

[NovU]

Yet the Hinkieologists claims they're enjoying the ride, when in fact it could take 5 or 10 who knows how many more years they'll need to draft LBJ. Yeah, I am sure those same people also enjoy standing in line for hours at the Disneyland for Alice in Wonderland ride. That's just wonderful. Give me the GM job and I can do tanking job just as well and won't cost you anymore than 1/5 of what you pay Hinkie.

I actually like Colangelo helping out the 76ers (otherwise for league's involvement in one's sovereignty). He brings experience. He has failed before and saw some level of success running the team. He probably learned things from past mistakes and probably got wiser through the process(ie. barfnani, rudy gay). I didn't believe yesterday that they could make the playoffs before Nets or Magic could. But perhaps they can if they actually make an attempt to sign some fucking people and stop saving money. I have a feeling management was all behind Hinkie for this entire tanking scheme too because of $$$. Perhaps league saw this and is sending a message, enough is enough. I can actually somewhat understand their action though I am not sure I like it.

[Andrew]

I guess at the end of the day, they want every team to at least try to be competitive, and not try to game and take advantage of the lottery system. I'm fine with them stepping in and making a strong recommendation, as it were.

[Spree#8]

The other owners had a chance to change the lottery system a bit over a year ago if they wanted to. The problem is, that would eliminate a way for them to get better through the draft should they ever need to use it. So of course, they will keep tanking as a viable option for themselves while interfering with the Sixers plan, however faulty it may be. Fuck that, fuck all of them and fuck Silver. And please don't give me the "attendace dropping, lost revenue" shit. Nobody's cared about this team for over a decade now.

The good thing is that Colangelo's presence alone might repair some of the relationships with other executives, agents and various player reps that Hinkie reportedly pissed off. The bad thing is we're not going through this shit to be mediocre again, which might turn out to be the case if Colangelo gets his way and inserts his son as the GM eventually.

Teams have sucked for just as long or even longer than the current Sixers. Hell, this is the Lakers' third straight season of being absolutely awful and this year their one-man tanking machine is really going hard at it... but of course nobody will shit on them for doing that, everybody's busy throwing Kobe retirement parties all over the NBA. This isn't anything new. The unprecedented thing about all this is just the media hard-on for slamming Philly.

I do wish things were coming along faster and I do wish that more than two of the five lottery picks Hinkie's made the past three drafts were playing for the team and contributing (and those two can't even play together for shit). I do wish Hinkie had kept Ish Smith this past summer, which would have solved many of the PG play problems that have been killing the team late in games. I don't belive Hinkie's a god who is immune to making mistakes. I would, however, like to see him get the chance to finish what he's started and make use of those assets he's been acquiring. The process hasn't been perfectly executed and the prolonged losing sucks, but young guys and a plethora of picks and cap space giving hope for a better future still beats prolonged mediocrity, fighting for the privilege of getting swept in the first round and no future at all. The league, other owners or any other dipshit interfering with the Sixers' plan is not cool at all.

[NovU]

Classic case of two wrongs don't make a right. Both the league and 76ers share faults. It's just shame it's come to lobbying to force a change.

Many felt this 'Trust the Process' scheme was going too far. Let's say Hinkie's plan works out, would you want to see the half the league that are mediocre to follow their step? Whether it was working or not, I could see how the league needed to set the example if the change wasn't gonna come from 76ers willingly and internally.



I also often argue that focusing on building a mediocre team with young core is better way than tanking endlessly anyway, which is a proven vastly easier way to build a winner. It's just much easier to turn mediocre teams into contenders.
http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/articles/t ... in-a-title

[Andrew]

There's also nothing wrong with being a mediocre team, if you're still on the way to being a much better team, and do have the potential (and assets) to get better. Not everyone can be the 2008 Celtics, leaping from the lottery to the championship in the span of a year. If being average/mediocre is a milestone on the way to being a legitimate contender, so be it. You just don't want to be like the Sixers were some years back, locking up a lot of money in players who would allow them to be average at best.

[air gordon]

Interesting article. Most of those winners are big market teams with the Spurs and Detroit being the outliers. Dallas even mini broke up their team due to salary reasons

The big market teams with owners willing to spend will always be at an advantage. I'm sure benji has said this before - it's pretty much the same teams in contention for the championship.

There isn't a team that has come out of nowhere to win it all. Spurs don't count the year Duncan was drafted

GSW is one team that follows the develop your young guys. Should be noted klay and draymond were drafted

[NovU]

GSW made a great transition from Ellis/Baron Davis era to Curry. They were never bad enough to land top 5 pick. None of their core guys are top 5 pick unless you count Bogut acquired via trade. The Spurs were lucky to trade for Kawhi at the cost of George Hill (Bird's biggest mistake) and they were able to prolong aging contendership and win one more ring.

The Blazers are taking similar approach with transition from LaMarcus era. They were doomed to be mediocre with him. But now they are young and couple years/stars away from becoming a contender. No need of hardcore tanking and signed some young guys with upsides. Can anyone say 76ers were in better position to make splash in this league quicker than teams like Jazz, Bucks, and Blazers even after years of worst team ever and sending away all assets while signing nobody. Hinkie's 'trust the process' is extremely elementary and stupid. It drove the reputation and credibility to ground. And they still waiting for Embiid and LBJ from draft. Trust the process is trust LBJ happens. Too bad KAT went to the wolves. So how long more for this joke?

76ers wants a shortcut and there isnt one.

[benji]

I also often argue that focusing on building a mediocre team with young core is better way than tanking endlessly anyway, which is a proven vastly easier way to build a winner.

But the Sixers are building a mediocre team. But unlike everyone else they're churning through D-League, second round and undrafted garbage hoping to find long-term pieces. And they have a bundle of potential All-Stars.

Noel, Embiid, Okafor, Covington, Saric, 2016 Draft Pick (imagine if its Simmons) is a tremendous young core. Wroten has fantastic third guard potential. Grant, Holmes and Wood all might have futures. (The latter two less so considering the wave of bigs the team has/are coming. But they're assets to deal.)

They're going to have a gaggle of first round picks in 2016 AND they have a ton of swap rights.

The team hasn't made a bad trade at all under the "process." The only real questionable move was Vucevic and they thought they were getting a franchise center in Bynum. And that blew up the franchises entire plan.

You mention the Nets. That franchise is a disaster area, they're a better team because of Lopez, but all their draft picks are headed to Boston and their last good pick was sent to Portland and became Lillard. They likely have a better shot at FA's but then again, they have to sign one of consequence since moving to Brooklyn.

George Hill has been a major contributor to the Pacers success of recent years, Leonard would have been stuck behind West/Granger/George for his matriculation.

Golden State was a lousy team that built itself into contention through the draft. And by shedding all their contracts and cycling through D-League garbage.

The Jazz flipped a then superstar to get Derrick Favors (#3 pick) and Enes Kanter (#3 pick). (They also dealt away the picks that led to Montiejunas, Terrence Jones and Gorgui Dieng) Gutted the team letting Al Jefferson and Paul Milsap walk so they could be a dumping ground for Golden State's garbage contracts. They flipped Kanter for nothing.

Portland's coming off back to back 50 win seasons with their existing stud Lillard, the emergence of McCollum and snagging two more in Ed Davis and Mason Plumlee.

You were just complaining about the Bucks. (Who amazingly traded for and waived Caron Butler twice over a year and a half.)

The Sixers aren't openly tanking, they're playing their three best players consistent minutes, they're waiting on three others. There's no point to signing a bunch of 30 year old veterans and winning 22 games instead of 16 when they might find some useful talent like Bob Covington. Who was undrafted, played well in the D-League then dumped by Houston and the Sixers snapped him up. He may not start on a playoff team but they're paying him $4 million over four years. He's an effective bomber, decent rebounder, and is currently leading the league in thievery. He's just being pushed to do too much to produce offensive from the perimeter right now.

If Noel and Okafor can't work together one is a trade asset, and so is Embiid if he comes back and plays close to expected.

[benji]

GSW made a great transition from Ellis/Baron Davis era to Curry.

And it took four years of shredding the roster from top to bottom and entering the lottery multiple times and drafting well starting with Curry who was great from the start (and an All-Star level talent by his second season), the Sixers haven't had that player yet:
2007-08: 48-34
2008-09: 29-53
2009-10: 26-56
2010-11: 36-46
2011-12: 29-53* (23-43)
2012-13: 47-35
2013-14: 51-31

Curry is the only player from the 2010 and 2011 teams. Him and Thompson are the only ones from the 2012 team who stayed throughout. (Rush lost three season and came back this year.)

The Kings were lousy for like two decades and couldn't get anywhere because they kept winning 30-35 games and drafting questionably. Denver spent a lot of time doing the same. Hell, the Clippers are a grand example.

The Grizzlies are probably a better example of a tanking strategy bombing, they were absolute garbage, drafted *very high* every year and still didn't win until they moved to Memphis, dumped their two best players and rebuilt around the unknown Pau Gasol and flameout Jason Williams. And even that team never left the first round. And then the trend resumed with Mayo, Gay and Thabeet.

[benji]

Drafts:
Grizzlies, 1995-2002: #6, #3, #4, #2, #2, #6, #4
Grizzlies, 2006-2009: #8*, #4, #3*, #2

76ers: 2013-2015: #6*, #11. #3, #12*, #3

Sonics/Thunder, 2006-2009: #10, #2, #5*, #4, #3

Clippers, 1987-1990: #4, #1, #6, #2, #8,
Clippers, 1994-2004: #7, #15*, #7, #14, #1, #4, #3, #2, #8, #12, #6, #4
Clippers, 2008-2010: #7, #1, #8

Kings, 1985-1998: #6, #17, #6, #18, #1, #7, #14, #3, #7, #7, #8, #13, #14, #11, #7
Kings, 2007-2015: #10, #12, #4, #5, #10*, #5, #7, #8, #6

Nuggets, 1986-2002: #16, #23, #15, #3, #4, #8, #5, #13, #9, #13, #2*, #23, #5, #10, #23, #3, #18, #26, #5, #7

Magic's highest pick, 1989-2005: #11, #4, #10, #1, #1, #27, #25, #27, #17, #12/13/15, #38, #5/10/13, #15, #18, #15, #1, #11, #11, #44, #22, #29, #53, #19, #2, #4/10*, #5
Cavalier's highest pick, 1999-2014: #8/11, #8, #8, #6, #1, #10, #25, #19, #30, #1/4, #4, #1, #1

*Traded for this pick.

[NovU]

Oh comon benji, didn't think you'd be that trust the process guy. I guess I am too because eventually they will get their LBJ. Only that how long that will take remains to be mythical.

The team hasn't made a bad trade at all under the "process."

Each year they traded away their first round player. While you could say they weren't keepers, they were very cheap to keep around. Rookie scale contracts isn't really mortgaging the future, but ofc you send your best potential away within a year or two and replace them with D-league caliber guys. And you have audacity to tell me they aren't openly tanking after years of openly emptying out the roster to shave cost. Hinkie deal isn't some fantasy story but is very real.

You mention what I think about the Bucks, lol. It should further emphasize sadness I feel for the 76ers.




Hinkie's a financial/business guy not a basketball guy. Take a look at his resume. Under his basketball related experience/education section, there should be one single line that says DaryLoL Morey. He's probably better off as a financial adviser or a hedge fund manager. Perhaps is hired for that very reasons too by the owners.
http://www.libertyballers.com/2015/2/25 ... d-millions
http://articles.philly.com/2015-06-26/s ... -agreement

[benji]

I'm not a "trust the process" guy as much as I recognize the value propositions and probabilities. This is basically Morey's methodology of stockpiling pieces except that the Sixers are not starting from a 55 win team that's lost its two best players, it's starting from like a 30 win team whose best players were Thaddeus Young and Jrue Holiday. Now they've amassed the possibility to start next season with five potential future All-Stars.

The only reason anyone is bitching media-wise is because the Sixers aren't wasting time filling out the roster with your Tayshaun Princes and other garbage 32+ year olds for high salaries and minutes so they're flexible and can do the churn of players throughout the season. (Houston did the same thing.)

The reason teams are bitching is because of the impact it has had on league revenue sharing. (Though it's been more than a decade since Philly had a top ten attendance, they've been in the bottom of the league with exactly those 25-35 win teams everyone would prefer under Eddie Jordan/Mo Cheeks/etc.)

Each year they traded away their first round player.

No, they haven't. Hinkie's traded one of their first rounders, MCW.

The Payton-for-Saric deal was on draft night. And they only "moved down" 2 spots to get the player they wanted anyway AND picked up Orlando's 2017 first rounder.

Embiid missing a second year changed "the process" because they had to punt another season on possibly their best player. Speaking of which, he's trimmed off all that weight so he could work out in front of the Sixers dancers: https://www.instagram.com/p/_LPOublrkL/

[NovU]

Morey had a chance to sink low, then he opted to sign Lin and Asik, Nothing mattered though as he lucked into Harden right away. What of his methodology is anything Hinkie alike? Whatever it is, it's a farfetched one. Hinkie's been a dollar pincher, Morey's been a chaser(after big names).

Media is bitching because 76ers have been breaking their own record each season from the wrong side of the fence. Likewise, media is praising the Warriors.

Five Future All-Stars? LoL. Do you mean that in a way that we could say that for nearly every young team.

No, they haven't.

Yes they have.
MCW, Jrue, Turner, Vucevic, Harkless, Elfrid
Don't even Saric. He's practically a future draft pick.

[benji]

Hinkie didn't trade Vucevic or Harkless.

Dealing Jrue and Turner were good moves. They got Noel and Saric for Jrue. The Pacers didn't even bother to extend a qualifying offer to Turner.

Morey had a chance to sink low, then he opted to sign Lin and Asik

Two second year players.

What of his methodology is anything Hinkie alike? Whatever it is, it's a farfetched one. Hinkie's been a dollar pincher, Morey's been a chaser(after big names).

Asset accumulation. The Rockets in 2011-12 had Chandler Parson, Marcus Morris, Patrick Patterson, Hasheem Thabeet, Terrance Williams, Jordan Hill, Jonny Flynn, Chase Budinger, Courtney Lee, Goran Dragic and Kyle Lowry on the roster.

Five Future All-Stars? LoL. Do you mean that in a way that we could say that for nearly every young team.

Noel's a 21 year old defensive beast, Okafor is 20 and already a 19/9 player, Saric is 21 and a potential 18/9/3 on 40% threes player (that's what he's doing in Europe), Embiid is 21 and was absolutely dominating in college.

And in the 2016 Draft, the Sixers will have their lottery pick, the Lakers if it's outside the top 3, the Heat's if it's outside the top ten and the Thunder's if it's outside the lottery. Four first round pick. Two potential top five picks along with likely two back end first round picks.

Another likely rotation guy, Wroten is 22. Covington's only 25.

[NovU]

Dealing Jrue and Turner were good moves. They got Noel and Saric for Jrue. The Pacers didn't even bother to extend a qualifying offer to Turner.

In hindsight, maybe. Point is he deals assets away prematurely for dollars and picks.

Asset accumulation.

Every team does. Morey was going for signing, spending, risking instead of developing Parsons and cos. Hinkie starves his family for 3 days to save up for family night lobster buffet.

Noel's a 21 year old defensive beast, Okafor is 20 and already a 19/9 player, Saric is 21 and a potential 18/9/3 on 40% threes player (that's what he's doing in Europe), Embiid is 21 and was absolutely dominating in college.

You did trust the process. I didn't. Who knows Hinkie still would have gone for $ and piling up more losses while sending away assets because they aren't LBJ.

BTW where did you get those Saric's numbers?

And in the 2016 Draft, the Sixers will have their lottery pick, the Lakers if it's outside the top 3, the Heat's if it's outside the top ten and the Thunder's if it's outside the lottery. Four first round pick. Two potential top five picks along with likely two back end first round picks.

Great. You know what this means right? given Hinkie's track record so far? No signing, just rookies all over again, perhaps a couple of them that needs developing and PT meaning possible competition with 5 potential allstars. Perhaps another season of tanking or two coming?

[benji]

Morey got nowhere with real free agents until he landed Harden. He wasn't signing and spending, he dumped Lowry and Lee for picks and waiver garbage. He shoved all those assets out the door for pennies on the dollar. Including Asik and Lin two years into their deals. (He's also supplied the 76ers with half their current roster it seems like.)

The Sixers offered both Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler max deals, but they chose to stay with the teams that drafted them.

Hinkie didn't trade away assets prematurely.

Jrue was decent, but not a star and not worth more than the potential of Noel and a 2014 1st. His injury woes since have only made that deal look better.

Spencer Hawes and Evan Turner were both 25 and reserves at best. Even inflating their stats wasn't getting buyers. MCW is a similar situation.

Who exactly should Hinkie have signed that he realistically could have gotten?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/eur ... ric-1.html
At age 20 and 21 in the Euroleague, Saric has averaged 14.5/9.5/3.5 and 20.3/10/3 per 36. I "averaged" them with weight on his second year because of aging. Euroleague stats translate well to the NBA, especially considering he's so young.

The Sixers will have a logjam up front and they'll be in a position to move one of their bigs for backcourt or perimeter help especially absorbing contracts, and then chase free agents after the 2016 Draft haul. It's a shame Embiid can't come back and show off at the end of this year.

After stocking up with four new rookies, potentially two great ones, if Embiid shows off his potential and Saric comes over they could look into a deal that looks like Okafor to Denver for Gallinari and Wilson Chandler/Will Barton to bolster the perimeter. Or swing other deals where they absorb players into the cap space like they did with the Kings this summer getting Landry.

Or they can throw a bundle of money at UFA's like Batum, Stephenson/Eric Gordon and Brandon Jennings/Mike Conley/Jeff Teague combo next offseason along with their gaggle of young talents and instantly create a decently young backcourt to go with their bigs. That'd instantly double their win totals even if they got the lesser of those players.

Speaking of all this, Zach Lowe just published an article based on an interview with Hinkie: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/i ... art-future

[benji]

phpBB [video]

[NovU]

You have to realize hinkieology is a flawed religion just like atheism and climate change-ism, benji.

One, collecting assets is just one facet of rebuilding strategy, it's not ALL.
Imagine a player that's best at converting long twos. He'd be the best at the worst possible shot. Hinkie is best at the worst rebuild strategy. 4-5 years into the process with mockery each season, you still have to envy Wolves and Hornets greatly. There's obvious wrong with that picture.

Two, drafting your ways to a championship is extremely difficult.
You need three great players. If you are lucky like the Thunder, you will hit that quality player every other year. That's 6 year gap between your first quality guy and last. So they come with peak years, wait for your first to turn 24ish while your last becomes 30ish. Otherwise you need to trade or sign them.




LBJ happens, things can turn rapidly but how many LBJ do we have in this world?

[benji]

You do realize that when the 2016 Draft rolls around it will only be Hinkie's third year on the job right?

[NovU]

He took over the office 2013 and his declaration of tanking era began with Jrue trade. You and I both know Hinkie was on pace to tank for likely at least 2 more seasons in the name of collecting and developing assets. Ofc Hinkieologists trust in process and Jesus LBJ will show up and save their holy team.

[air gordon]

Welcome back, benji. Rodney white stinks