Signature Skills: Tied to Player Progression for CAPs

It's a major feature for 2K. Don't think it will give you the option to turn it off.

Like you, I'm more interested in those that add new aspects to the game, rather than those that could just be labels for ratings and tendencies we already have, or ones that are just ratings turned binary. I hate Microwave and Closer for that exact reason. They're the Consistency and Clutch ratings turned from a 0-99 scale into a 0-1 scale.

You hate that? I mean, finally you can really see a difference. Where was the difference between a consistency 90 and 70? There was none. Now you finally have those players stand out.

Finally there is a reason to give the ball to a player in the late game, because he is clutch. Not "20" more clutch than your second option, but just clutch and the others aren't (what still does not mean they cannot hit open shots)

Same for the acrobatic thing: It made almost no sense to change your shot mid-air in 2k12, because you you did not really see if a player is good at doing it or not. Now, I would not try it with Sefolosha but with Westbrook, which adds realism and makes players more valuable and easier to use the right way.

Same about poster-dunks. I hate getting posterized by players who aren't physically imposing because of their dunking rating. The dunking rating is just not a good idea. It's better to give these skills to players who really do it.

The lockdown defender is one of the best additions ever! It takes away a signature skill of a superstar - which really gives you a difference. You can now finally put in Tony Allen instead of a good shooter/scorer, because HE WILL help you just by taking away one skill of the opponent player. There was no difference between Ray Allen and any good defender in the league in 2k12. Just stay in front of your guy and hope he does not hit it in you face. Now there will finally be a valuable skill on defense apart from blocking and stealing!

hova-, most of the things you mentioned could just as well be done by making ratings matter more. Player differentiation shouldn't be a binary thing.

The fact that consistency didn't matter should mean that 2K should fix it, so that it matters. Players aren't just either "consistent" or "inconsistent". Same goes for clutch. Players aren't either clutch or not clutch. Different clutch players achieve different levels of late 4th quater performances. Acrobatic, once again, could be a rating. Not all players are equally skilled at changing their shot mid-air. Defense, again. There's ratings like On-Ball Defense and Defensive Awareness that should matter more than what they did in 2K12.

EVERYTHING they did with Signature Skills could be done with some new ratings and abilities, and tweaking the code of how each rating affects a player's game, so that they do something.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to like the difference between players that have a certain skill and those that don't. I just want to see players that have the same skill not be equal at it.

It's harder to easily create differentials on a hundred point scale than it is on a ten or five or three or two point scale. Especially if you're going to do it as a scale within normal ranges instead of percentiles or whatever.

A binary switch that boosts a player is far easier than rewriting the entire decade old rating system and teaching the 2K Insider how to pretend to use it.

It's harder to easily create differentials on a hundred point scale than it is on a ten or five or three or two point scale. Especially if you're going to do it as a scale within normal ranges instead of percentiles or whatever.

A binary switch that boosts a player is far easier than rewriting the entire decade old rating system and teaching the 2K Insider how to pretend to use it.

That's what I'm talking about. What's the difference between a 50 and a 60? Does not really make sense in everything apart of shooting. And if you look at consistency the way 2k did it was 0-66-99 iirc.

And especially on D it's even tougher. Bruce Bowen/Shane Battier are the best examples. Good defenders who take away the strenghts of their opponents, but not only by being a good onball defender (actually they aren't that quick on their feet)

Those ratings are still there, but for some key categories why not bring in the binary thing. Separate the cream from the crop, making at least the "stars" better than the rest and give some role-players their key-strength so they are more useful.

Again, if not on a 100 scale, why not make it leveled (e.g. 5-point scale) instead of binary? Give the choice between Off/Level 1/Level 2/Level 3 or whatever you want to name it, like Abilities are currently in 2K12. Does it have to be on/off?

One thing EA did with the superstars was initially do a binary switch, then added a secondary level for players who were good but not the very top of whatever it was.

It may just be easier within the short dev cycles to put the system in place and have it work, then add nuance in the future. Tendencies were originally much cruder than they are now.

Fair enough. Being the first year of the feature, I'll try and back off. I hope they improve it on future iterations. Let's see how well it works out in the final game first, anyway.

Go after it all you want, I was just responding regarding the ratings point. EA and 2K have tried for decades now to figure out how to differentiate the players more. Live had a fundamental flaw in the archaic rating system, I think 2K probably has too much legacy framework still holding the game up. You're right that the games don't really understand how and why the players are different based on their ratings enough.

IIRC, the only reason 2K even has the number of tendencies it does is they hired Inside Drive people who came in and said "lol wtf are you doing?"

Last edited by benji on Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Clutch and Microwave were already in the game as ratings/sliders. They were clutch and consistency, but instead of being on a 100 scale, they're now binary.

Here's some quotes from what I wrote on OS about the matter.

Just posting to say I'm totally with youALREADYknow and RyanFitzMagic on this one.

As much as I like some of the new signature skills, others seem like rebrandings of past ratings and tendencies, but that are now binary (on/off, 0/1) instead of on a 100 scale (0-99). That's actually a step backwards.

Every signature skill so far could be implemented in much more detail if applied via (old and new) ratings, abilities and tendencies. Then, those signature skills could show up as icons for players who fitted the criteria for each skill. For example, players with high defensive awareness, hustle, speed and blocking could earn the Chase Down Blocker icon. Players with high clutch and shooting ability could get the Clutch icon. Exactly like how in 2K12 the 3PT Specialist, Finisher and Lockdown Defender icons show up depending on a players' ratings.

Right now, players that share the same skill will have the exact same effect. For example, two players with the Floor General skill will have the exact same effect on their teammates. So that means that all players with the "Floor General" skill, per 2K's standards, are equally good at making their teammates better.

Signature Skills shouldn't be binary, they shouldn't be On-Off. They should be in the least leveled, like Abilities are in 2K12, and optimally be determined by adding new ratings, abilities and tendencies when required.

You couldnt give that scenario with all of them though example poster dunker LeBron is faster stronger and more athletic than most other players with the same skill set so while they both can poster people lebrons would be alot different. And the point of floor general is to make your teammates play better in how many ways are they supposed to do that? Give me an example of the difference.

It's all numbers and percentages. When an AI player has to pick through the gazillion of moves he can do at any point in time in the game, his offensive awareness and other ratings and tendencies affect the probability of which move he will do, how fast he will do it, etc. Since Floor General is meant to raise your teammates Offensive Awareness, say it's a +5 bonus when that player is on the floor. Should all Floor Generals give the same +5 bonus to their teammates? Or should some players be better at it, giving +7, while others be worse at it but still be decent enough to get the skill, giving something like +3?

Granted, this could be easily fixed by leveling the Signature Skill effect on what the player's other ratings are. An obvious one would be Finisher. A player with higher Dunk and Layup ratings will make better use of Finisher compared to a worse player that still has this Sig Skill. In the same manner, Floor General could give an effect that is a percentage of say, the player's offensive awareness (and other parts of their IQ). So say, Floor General could be
"When on the floor, he raises his teammates Offensive Awareness by 50% of every point of Offensive Awareness he has above 80."
So, a player with an Offensive Awareness of 92 would give a +6 bonus to his teammates, while one with 84 would give a +2 bonus to his teammates.

I see where you're coming from with this, but is that really how these SSs will work in this game? I thought they were there to give more casual players an at-a-glance look at which players excel in which ways. I thought that there would be underlying numerical values (0-99) still associated. So say 2 players have the Closer SS, maybe one has OClutch of 98 and the other has OClutch of 92; since they're both in a particular range (say, 90+), they both get labeled with the Closer SS.

I've said that I wish it was exactly like this, that they were just labels/icons that are triggered by (old and new) ratings, tendencies and abilities, just like the 3PT icon or the dunk icon were triggered in 2K12. But the 5 signature skill limit doesn't make sense if it were so.

Signature Skills are things that you equip your player with to give him bonuses in areas he's already good at (at least I hope so, I wouldn't want to see players with an On-Ball Defense rating of 50 being able to equip Lockdown Defender and neutralizing my players' signature skills).

Let's see what the full dev write-up on Signature Skills, which comes today, has to say.

they need to send you to the next meetup i am sure you can give them some knowledge

They already know what I'm talking about daddy123. It's probably like benji said, baby steps in order not to fuck up everything. I wouldn't be surprised if Signature Skills getting levels becomes a feature next year.

EDIT:
@Ronnie2K: Will release video on #NBA2K13 Signature Skills & description blog on ALL the Signature Skills except 2 My Player Exclusive ones later today

So MyPlayer gets 2 exclusive signature skills, and we'll have to wait for the game modes dev write-up (probably) to find out more about them.

I think the hype machine is broken


MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT IN 2 DAYS.......We got something big for you next week

ALL SIG SKLZ DURING PAX..........except two



This all sounds great and good for 2K13....but, eh, I honestly have no hype 'gotta have it' feelings towards the game. I just foresee the pain in the arse that is the tutorials, the stress of tools possibly not working, and then the process of decoding the roster for the REDitor.

When did you start around here again?

Agreed with benji. Isn't this business as usual? Or was it something about a previous iteration that made you want the game so bad before release?

Last things that really made me want the game early were My Player and Dynamic Commentary. I still can't enjoy My Player due to the utterly stupid AI, and although dynamic commentary is great, I still feel it's missing lots to really make the immersion something special.

I actually took Jao's comment in a less darkly and cynical stance than you might expect from me. He can and will correct of course, but I interpreted it as that frustration you eventually get from patching the same thing over and over. You burn out from it as you do the same things every year with the games.

I just couldn't remember when he started and was thinking he was hitting that point all of us but Andrew did.

The game taking baby steps doesn't help.

That seems fair. It's easy to burn out at some point if you're patching a game that doesn't get you excited anew when a new iteration hits. The work that is required at the start of the game's lifespan can prove to be quite repetitive, as tools have to be adjusted to new file formats, compression algorithms, etc, and I can only imagine how much time is spent to decode the roster for REDitor.

We need new people that have the same kind of devotion so that people like Jao can step down and do fewer things. Activity in the community has been good for 2K12, let's see if this keeps up for 2K13.

Who knows, maybe 2K13's Blacktop ends up being epic enough to grab Jao by the balls and keep him interested in playing the game (besides just patching it, which is pretty much what happened with him and 2K12) till his wife files for divorce.

We'll have new people, I did 1998-2005. And we've survived the last seven years despite that.

The one concern I do have are the segmentation and drive for profit by various entities.

It's not just here. But the idea that you produce something you want and freely share it with fellow fans is dying off as people see it as a platform to dreams.

And we can always hold Jao's plastic instruments hostage.

We need new people that have the same kind of devotion so that people like Jao can step down and do fewer things.

Hi Leftos

I just couldn't remember when he started and was thinking he was hitting that point all of us but Andrew did.

My first post/sign up date was a patch release, so, 7 years next week? Tied with your run?

I don't think it's being burned out, I mean, I barely did any patching for Live 08 and I believe I had no releases for 2K9 (although, I was starting the NBA Live PC project for 06 during that time). If anything, I think it might be marriage, baby, impending graduation and graduate school. I've been leaning heavily on Leftos, Pat, and others the past couple years with the "research & development" aspects of patching like the lighting, animations, exe hacking , Total Conversion Mods, etc. I've just been doing a broad approach, then not finishing , and posting my findings for anyone to finish up, heh.

The one concern I do have are the segmentation and drive for profit by various entities.

Werd, but you will never take my YouTubez Ad Moniez!!!

And we can always hold Jao's plastic instruments hostage.

Take 'em, Blitz uses a controller

I don't think it's being burned out, I mean, I barely did any patching for Live 08 and I believe I had no releases for 2K9 (although, I was starting the NBA Live PC project for 06 during that time). If anything, I think it might be marriage, baby, impending graduation and graduate school. I've been leaning heavily on Leftos, Pat, and others the past couple years with the "research & development" aspects of patching

Same as the rest...

Time to choose: some boring female and random offspring or plastic instruments and patches.

I will have much more time to devote to NLSC and patching/modding this year come October (graduating), so... HI.

Time to choose: some boring female and random offspring or plastic instruments and patches.

The wife likes Blitz and respects patching as a hobby......BOTH!

I will have much more time to devote to NLSC and patching/modding this year come October (graduating), so... HI.

muahahaha, HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaa....

Mommy, why is daddy dancing with that fake guitar?

Mommy, why does daddy have so many sweaty men on his screen?

One question I have for 2K:

Does a player with a signature skill pump up trade value in association? Does it affect overall?

A dev write-up is coming soon.

Hopefully it will clear the air.