NBA LIVE v. NBA 2K : An Unbiased Open Letter to the Basketba

[DELMARJONES]

To Whom It May Concern,





Although I may be new to these forums I am not new to the NBA LIVE and NBA 2K series. My love for sports gaming started with NBA 2K on the Sega Dreamcast. I was a NBA 2K fan until the Dreamcast folded and NBA LIVE 03 released. Since then I have been a die-hard NBA LIVE fan.



The reason why I made the switch from 2K to LIVE was because of the groundbreaking feature "Freestyle Control". Never before in a basketball game were we granted so much freedom to do with the ball exactly what we wanted to do. NBA Live made constant leaps foward in the gameplay department every year after the 03 installment up until NBA LIVE 07. Now I wont go in to a whole lot of detail about the game because as we all know, it was a complete disaster.



Although I supported NBA LIVE I felt that NBA LIVE 07 did not warrant a purchase from me, but neither did NBA 2K7, even though it was light years ahead of NBA LIVE on Next-Gen systems at that point in time. I always felt like the 2K series was missing something, yes, we know that the graphics in the series have been mediodcre at best, but that wasnt it, it was something deeper. After playing NBA 2K7 for a couple of hours I wasnt empressed, my basketball gaming cravings were left unfulfilled, and thus, I was empty. And then I finally figured it out, I finally figured out what was missing to me. The NBA 2K series lacked personality. Yeah, the jerseys moved and the players were shiny, but, was the really game that good? In my opinion no, but, NBA LIVE was so bad, and the basketball gaming community desperately needed a basketball game to play that the NBA 2K series was crowned king. I for one decided not to support either party because in my opinion both were bad in their own special way.



Now after a year off of basketball gaming I was determined to make a purchase. I scoured through countless websites and gaming forums to see with what series would I be siding with. Now I used the word "siding" because during that period of time I discovered that there was almost a war going on between the NBA LIVE and NBA 2K communities. I was astonished by the sheer passion that people held for their selctive series. Based off of reviews, previews, and the demos that were released I chose to purchase NBA LIVE.





Although I wasnt blown away by the LIVE 08 installment, I was relieved that it was at least playable and fun again. LIVE 08 had great graphics, great online play, but unfortunately the broken gameplay held the series down. Flaws and all, I stuck with NBA LIVE up until I ran across a by now classic NBA 2K8 video on youtube in the summer. The aforementioned video is the NBA 2K8 - O.M.G. video created by MomentousCeltic, I was immediately blown away by the realism in the player movements and animations. NBA 2K8 was a good game but again I felt like it lacked the personality and fun that no matter how bad things seem to be, NBA LIVE always has. I also felt that the controls , constant sliding, and other things kind of held the game down. But, it was enough to get my purchase in 09.



I bought NBA 2K9 and I admit I was impressed, the 2K staff finally gave the game a much needed facelift, animations were still life-like, and gameplay was still intact. I was so dissapointed in the fact that the LIVE series took one step foward in 08 and two steps back in 09, that I felt like leaving the series alone all together. But after a month or so of playing 2K9 the old feeling cameback. The feeling of boredom, the feeling of fustration, and that same old empty feeling came rushing back. Could it be the overly complicated controls? Could it be the disastrous Online play? I didnt know, but I did know one thing, NBA 2K just isnt for me.



Now it has been a few months since i had this epiphany and I am once again searching through the forums. I have been blown away by the LIVE screens so far and unimpressed by the 2K screens, but, last night the gamespot.com preview was very outstanding. Now without a doubt the feature that is most immpressive is the NBA 2K "My Player" feature. They have everything that is needed in the single player career mode. This includes summer games, the d-league, and even the nba draft combine. Now, while reading this article I got so angry because for years, well, since 05 the LIVE community had been asking for a Career mode. In 09 we got our hopes up when NHL 09 released the biggest feature ever in a sports game with their "Be a Pro" Mode, and we got teased in NBA LIVE 09 with a single game appetizer of what could have been.





I honestly feel that the NBA LIVE development team has been caught with their pants down again. Now as we all know, all information has not been released by either party, I just cant help but to feel like NBA LIVE is one step behind again. But I will not lose hope in my favorite game of all time, with Mike Wang, the architect of NBA 2K gameplay, and EA Sports asthetics first attitude as well as their infinite resources I truly believe that NBA LIVE will be back on top again. Only time will tell.





Sincerely,



Delmar Jones



PS:THANK YOU FOR READING. COMMENTS AND FEEDBACK ARE WANTED AND WELCOMED. THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS. AGAIN THANK YOU.

[J@3]

EA have been resting on their laurels with NBA Live for years now. In 2000 they released an NBA Live that included MIchael Jordan, this was their huge selling point and the game is fantastic. I don't know if that game had particularly great sales figures or something but the next installment, 2001, was garbage and bordering on unplayable. For the next five years or so after that it was basically a lucky dip with either two possibilities, good game/shit game. You'd have decent versions of the game and bad versions, until around NBA Live 07 where they threw away the lucky dip box and just settled for making shit games. Scrapping Live on PC was a dumb move, and has virtually killed the original purpose of this site. We can only live off old versions of Live for so long before people stop caring and don't bother visiting. Meanwhile their producers pander to idiots on the internets and spend all their time trying to figure out how to make new shoe designs in the game sound like better updates than gameplay ones.

EA's strategy is to take out things that were already in the game, wait a few years then put them back in and act like they've done everyone a favor. In-game saves will be the next one, maybe they'll take out the be a pro thing this year and put it back in for Live 12... or they'll realize that 2K has now monopolized the PC basketball game market and move back into that area.

Despite this post I'm not a 2K fanboy. I think it's a better game, I think their production crew is more innovative and creative but the fact is this is an NBA Live site and I came here originally as an NBA Live player. It's not my fault EA has all but given up, or that the game is sub-par, or that outside of the community day trips for Andrew they've done virtually nothing for us despite being the biggest/most important NBA Live fan website on the internet, or that they can't be bothered making the game on PC anymore leaving us with no way of patching it in future... none of these things are my fault, and I'm not as impressed by flashy graphics and aircraft hangars as some people. For me the only way Live could've come out on top of this years "war" would've been if 2K made no updates and released the same game with a different sticker (sort of like EA has been doing for the last few years) ... they didn't, instead they brought in a bunch of innovations most of us have been asking EA to include for years. So yeah, nail in the coffin.

[Andrew]

I don't blame you for feeling that way and I don't entirely disagree of course, but there's a lot of stuff about NBA Live 10 that hasn't been revealed yet. Dynamic Season and Live Run could be too innovative features we're yet to learn the details of, for example, and stuff about gameplay seems to be right around the corner.

The dropping/reintroduction of features is a frustrating issue. As I've said before, the transition to the current generation of consoles hasn't been particularly kind to NBA Live given the decision to avoid porting too much from the old technology and rebuilding some of the key features on the new technology. I think that's set back NBA Live from the start on what's now current gen and they've had to play catch up. Hopefully in the long run it will be worth it but it's been unkind to the releases in the series in the meantime.

The situation with the PC platform sucks, but that's coming from higher up than the NBA Live Dev Team as other EA titles have been affected by that decision as well...FIFA is a noteworthy exception though.

[Patr1ck]

FIFA is not a noteworthy exception, imo. It does not play like the nextgen game because it does not contain the same gameplay code. This was stated by the community manager who claimed that only 1-3% of computer owners would be able to run the game if they ported all the AI code from the 360 to the PC. It did get a graphics update, though.

Would you be happy with NBA Live gameplay that was not up to par with the 360 version, but looked like it in screenshots? They just got most of the basic game of basketball working by 09 after two failed experiments in 06 and 07.

2K Sports has been silently reading and listening to what the communities want out of a basketball game. Player career mode, D-league, draft class, fresh animations that distinguish different styles of play and are customizable. They basically let us mod the game inside the game. Not to say that Live doesn't have it's share of customizability, but assigning what type of shot animation a player does when they go to the left or the right, whether they are rolling, or fading or drifting just elevates it to another level. We all know the global canned animations can get old pretty quick. The more variety of animations at our disposal, the better.

It's kind of early to talk about the My Player career mode vs the Be a Pro mode in Live. What if the newer storyline commentary reacts to your Pro in a Be A Pro career mode? What if Live 10 also has the D-League? What if playing in the D-League is completely boring and just busy work before getting your player signed in the NBA?

[ThaLiveKing]

I agree with EVERYTHING you said. I really didn't like 2k9, While Live 09 wasn't the best game, I felt more comfortable playing it. 2k just seemed to lob sided for me, I remember my brother blew me out 141-101 in 2k. I'm like come on, no matter what I did with the sliders, somebody was getting blown out. Shit was pathetic. So I just play Live 09, and it pretty much grew on me, and since JaoSming and BiggD added those new rosters, I'm enjoying the game even more. I always buy both games regardless, except Live 07, I wasn't wasting my money on that crap. Live 10, just by looking at the trailer, it already looks better than 09. I can't wait for these gameplay videos to come out, because they been bragging since FEB or whateva about the gameplay. We've wanted fluid gameplay since Live came on the 360, and I just don't understand the lack of initiative on EA's part to get us the game we wanted, cause that shit ain't basketball. Now they say they've got, we'll wait and see, I don't doubt them one bit this year, because every website that has seen Live 10, even though it wasn't hands on, said that the game plays smoother. I just want to now judge for myself. I'm tired of EA Trying, Get It Done

[DELMARJONES]

It's kind of early to talk about the My Player career mode vs the Be a Pro mode in Live. What if the newer storyline commentary reacts to your Pro in a Be A Pro career mode? What if Live 10 also has the D-League? What if playing in the D-League is completely boring and just busy work before getting your player signed in the NBA?

You know, I honestly have a "gut-feeling" that the Be a Pro mode in LIVE will still not live up to what we want it to be this year. And I do believe that all of the things that we want in our Be a Pro mode are in NHL 09's Be a Pro mode, NHL 09's online play, and this is not for certain yet, but, also in 2Ks "My Player" mode. And ofcourse it would be great if the new storyline commentary reacts to our created player in Be a Pro mode, but, I feel like thats something that should be a "no-brainer", not something that we should have to discuss, like, "I hope the guys over at EA get this right". Its ashame that the series has come to this, it has been nothing but constant dissapointment and we continue to allow it. I am by no means in touch with the PC side of NBA Live, but, I see all of the hard work that the modders put in to keep the game updated and enjoyable for the PC fan base. I had no idea that the PC LIVE community was this huge, but its really a shame that they wont give you guys a new foundation to work with.

It's the little things that essentially make or break a game in my opinion. Like the option to chose how many games we want to play in our Dynasty, player customization, sliders, and the list goes on and on. If Live 10 has a D- League thats great, at least we will know that they heard us, because obviously 2K did. The gamespot preview stated that if your player wasn't perfoming then he would get dropped down to the D-League and depending on his performance in the D-League he could be called back up or be left in NBA purgatory forever. Hey, but who knows, it may just end up being busy work, or, it could be ground breaking. If the mode is new, fun, and playable, we cant really be to harsh with criticism. Remember Madden 05 I think that was the year when the Superstar Mode was introduced, yeah, it wasnt the best executed mode, but, it very creative and fun, even though it got boring after a while. And recenty with NBA LIVE 08s OTP, it had its problems but it was the most unique feature in LIVE 08, even though it took a while for the patch.

In short the point that Im trying to make is that we have show 2K some love for listening, it may not be our cup of tea, but, its proven that they liste to the community. And secondly, NBA LIVE desperately needs to take a page from the other EA Sports titles book as well as 2Ks.

[J@3]

The key thing for me is, and I'll use the D-League as an example, even if in NBA 2K10 it is just busy work, at least it's there. Maybe they'll fix it for 2K11, but the important thing is that it exists in the first place.

Believe me, if EA had the D-League in Live 2010 we'd know about it. The game would probably be called NBA Live 10 feat. D-League, Awvee Storey would be on the cover and they'd be hinting at it non stop for months beforehand.

[JaoSming]

the past years I was right with you jae. hyping the shit out of quickstrike and the DNA, OTP and any other new game mode coming in this year.

But those past years it was all done through IGN, Gamespot and other marketing websites. This year we are getting information directly from their mouths through forum posts, twitter, and blog posts. Granted, we are only 3 blogs in and they could get bad with it, but I dont see them hyping the game over 2k10 because of the Hanger. I see, "well instead of the practice gym (which they kept for dynasty) we went with a hanger that resembles that nike commercial" and then they talk about the inspiration for it and what happens when you load the game up.

Granted, I like 2k's idea better, since on a given NBA Season day, I usually play games that are played that night. But I always loved jumping right into gameplay with 360 Live. And other than the denials of CAT and the CAP Limit, the big thing that hurts about Live 10 is that we can't shoot around while the game loads again like Live 08 and that dumb trivia.

So, while I "get" your jokes about "NBA Live 10 ft NBDL" and shit, I dont think it's deserved this year...at least not yet.

[amirisballin]

the past years I was right with you jae. hyping the shit out of quickstrike and the DNA, OTP and any other new game mode coming in this year.

But those past years it was all done through IGN, Gamespot and other marketing websites. This year we are getting information directly from their mouths through forum posts, twitter, and blog posts. Granted, we are only 3 blogs in and they could get bad with it, but I dont see them hyping the game over 2k10 because of the Hanger. I see, "well instead of the practice gym (which they kept for dynasty) we went with a hanger that resembles that nike commercial" and then they talk about the inspiration for it and what happens when you load the game up.

Granted, I like 2k's idea better, since on a given NBA Season day, I usually play games that are played that night. But I always loved jumping right into gameplay with 360 Live. And other than the denials of CAT and the CAP Limit, the big thing that hurts about Live 10 is that we can't shoot around while the game loads again like Live 08 and that dumb trivia.

So, while I "get" your jokes about "NBA Live 10 ft NBDL" and shit, I dont think it's deserved this year...at least not yet.

How do you know that we won't be able to practice while the game loads? God i hated that in nba live 08.. and the thing is with those trivia questions they were the same thing over and over again lol..

[Andrew]

FIFA is not a noteworthy exception, imo. It does not play like the nextgen game because it does not contain the same gameplay code. This was stated by the community manager who claimed that only 1-3% of computer owners would be able to run the game if they ported all the AI code from the 360 to the PC. It did get a graphics update, though.

Would you be happy with NBA Live gameplay that was not up to par with the 360 version, but looked like it in screenshots? They just got most of the basic game of basketball working by 09 after two failed experiments in 06 and 07.

Well, it's noteworthy in that it's one of the few sports titles EA is still releasing for the PC. Having only played a demo and not really being into football/soccer, I wasn't aware of the rest of it but knowing that I certainly wouldn't want to see an inferior PC version that only looked like the 360/PS3 version. I wasn't aware that was the case with FIFA PC though, I was just talking about it being a rare PC release in the face of a seemingly console-only philosophy.

The key thing for me is, and I'll use the D-League as an example, even if in NBA 2K10 it is just busy work, at least it's there. Maybe they'll fix it for 2K11, but the important thing is that it exists in the first place.

But that's kind of like Be a Pro in NBA Live 09. Limited as it may be there, it's there to be built upon in the future but EA was criticised for it. I get where you're coming from of course but it's not really fair to say "At least it's there" with 2K and "Oh, EA half-arsed it" when it comes to Live. I know you didn't say the latter but that's what people were saying about Be a Pro.

EA are being really tight-lipped about NBA Live 10, much more so than usual. It seems like they're covering the basics first before launching into the big new stuff, which isn't a bad idea really.

[J@3]

So, while I "get" your jokes about "NBA Live 10 ft NBDL" and shit, I dont think it's deserved this year...at least not yet.

Maybe they don't have any new features to hype like that? Which is even worse than hyping smaller ones IMO.

But that's kind of like Be a Pro in NBA Live 09. Limited as it may be there, it's there to be built upon in the future but EA was criticised for it.

The thing about Be A Pro is that it wasn't an NBA Live inclusion, it was in FIFA and I'm assuming they've put it in various other sports games as well in the same year. People can criticize something if it doesn't work, that doesn't mean they should take it out and give up as opposed to improving it for the next time.

I get where you're coming from of course but it's not really fair to say "At least it's there" with 2K and "Oh, EA half-arsed it" when it comes to Live. I know you didn't say the latter but that's what people were saying about Be a Pro.

I don't know who these "people" are, but what I said and what you're talking about are different things. When 2K is released, if the D-League aspect sucks people will say so. The underlying factor is "at least it's there" but it's not like people won't criticize it as well. No one can say "oh 2K half-arsed it" about the D-League because the game hasn't been released and we don't know what it's like. I'm sure people were happy that EA included Be A Pro before the game was released, most of the criticism would've come after they'd actually played it for themselves. Like I said I think Be A Pro was an EA Sports thing more than an NBA Live thing, and it sucked in FIFA too.

[Andrew]

Granted, I was throwing out a hypothetical there. I should've clarified.

[benji]

If there's a major difference between Live and 2K, it's distribution of possessions. Now, I didn't get huge amounts of time with the last Live (a handful of games) but the possessions are still off. 2K's is far closer. (Which I'll assume comes from the ID devs they added, since ID had this pretty solid even back in 1999.)

The player will always abuse this, and there is no way around it without overestimating skill curves. But I still think nobody (for any game) is bothering to accurately map the players in the context of the team. Live wants to figure out which hand players drive with by Synergy, 2K wants to define where players shoot by 82games. 2K again has the advantage with lesser data.

I might change this view when Live finally talks about the new DNA. But last years was completely irrelevant. The key to a basketball game is defining players not by themselves but within their team. Live has never done this (and updating my Live "PC" roster REALLY emphasizes how backwards last gen was on this respect, I can't believe we lived with these ratings for a decade) and 2K is two miles or so ahead but we're still setting the ideal game 100 miles away.

People whine about shoes, socks and starting lineups, but rarely do people care that the games only represent actual basketball in the abstract. Especially in the dynasty/franchise/association.

[Hotshot]

Ah! Good old sensible discussions on the NLSC forums...

Well, it's noteworthy in that it's one of the few sports titles EA is still releasing for the PC. Having only played a demo and not really being into football/soccer, I wasn't aware of the rest of it but knowing that I certainly wouldn't want to see an inferior PC version that only looked like the 360/PS3 version. I wasn't aware that was the case with FIFA PC though, I was just talking about it being a rare PC release in the face of a seemingly console-only philosophy.

Truth be told, the PC version of FIFA 09 is almost entirely different from what they have on the NG consoles. The graphics did get a boost on the PC in 09 but it's still nowhere near as good as the consoles. Gameplay is severely lagging behind as well.
EA attributes the existence of an inferior PC version to the "fact" that porting the NG versions to PC is plenty work and that even if they did do it, only about 5% of all PC gamers would be able to run the game! To most informed FIFA PC gamers, that's just a complete load of BS. 2K ported the NG versions of NBA 2K9 beautifully and it runs on my year old mid level laptop without any fuss.
I think EA needs to quit making excuses, quit lying to the consumers and admit that they're not competent enough to code a game for the PC without having to cripple 95% or more of gaming PCs.

On to the topic of 2K vs Live... some folks here might recognize me from the old days when i used to do patches for the Live series. I was completely into it back then, and my commitment was reliant on EA continuing committing to produce superior versions of the PC game each year. Like most people on here, I was terribly disappointed to hear about the axing of the PC version and I reluctantly crawled into a state of retirement.
That said, I have been watching both Live and 2k very closely and I gotta admit, it's been hard to watch EA getting pummeled over the years by 2K. 2K continues to be innovative whereas one gets the feeling that EA has hung up their laces many years ago. I do hope that EA recovers and brings back the glory days of Live but with the kind of dedication the 2k team has for their work, I struggle to see how.

[Andrew]

I don't think EA has given up trying to be innovative, the NBA Live 365 concept is a good example of something new. But they were set back a long way when the new consoles came out and they decided to rebuild the game from scratch. They're in a difficult position; they need to be innovative but if they add new stuff before fixing what needs to be improved, they'll be criticised for adding gimmicky new stuff before fixing the fundamentals. If they fix the fundamentals but continue to lag behind in big new features, they'll be criticised for not being innovative. In that respect NBA Live 10 has a lot to prove as it needs to be an improvement on NBA Live 10 in the way it plays basketball but also have something new and impressive.

I think it has a shot. The previews that have shown us snippets of the basics have been promising and there's hints of bigger things as yet unannounced/unexplained, so we'll have to wait and see.

[J@3]

But they were set back a long way when the new consoles came out and they decided to rebuild the game from scratch.

That was their decision though, not one that they had to made and it hasn't paid dividends in the long term at all. The only reason EA is criticized more heavily than 2K is because EA had a good product and took it backwards, then basically continued to screw with the customers by taking things out, putting them back in, taking the game off PC etc. With 2K if there's a fault in the game you feel like there's a chance it'll be fixed and improved in future, I don't get that with the Live series.

[Andrew]

No question, it was a decision that placed them at risk of taking a lot of steps backwards and that's what happened as they've been left to play catch-up. Hopefully they can do that and it will pay off as soon as this year, but in hindsight it probably would've been better to port and rebuild/replace as they feel out the new technology.

[benji]

Starting over was the right thing to do. Their old engine was a piece of trash, Live 06 is basically unplayable. They would've had to rewrite the whole damn thing anyway.

[dascoot]

Well I just read that 2K10 will have the D- League in it's game which is awesome also it has multiplayer association mode. Live is at least I know two steps behind on adding certain features that I think are very important. The thing that keeps me coming back to live is that they have the slam dunk, 3pt shootout, rookies vs sophomores. I hope they at least add the multiplayer dynasty mode this year and do decide to add D-League without taking away some of the other great features from the previous years.

[DVocShoeBox]

I agree with you, 2k is hurting from All-Star weekend but they are also lacking the street ball "COURTS" not just one court, which they had about 6 courts back in 2k8. If 2k was too have All-Star weekend and more intivative streetball mode, with the "SUPPOSELY" features of this year, maybe they'll be a step foward towards "THE PERFECT BASKETBALL VIDEOGAME"

Also, Live seems to not have confident to me, as their continuing to add and drop features is a sign of being unsure with things. 2k's Confident on the other hand is RISING each year, as things added to the game each year is getting great feedback!!! So they are continueing to trust their new ideas as on the other Live seem to second quess a bit too much, hopefully they never remove All-Star Weekend.....

[Andrew]

Also, Live seems to not have confident to me, as their continuing to add and drop features is a sign of being unsure with things. 2k's Confident on the other hand is RISING each year, as things added to the game each year is getting great feedback!!! So they are continueing to trust their new ideas as on the other Live seem to second quess a bit too much, hopefully they never remove All-Star Weekend.....

I think part of that is due to the negative reactions to features that aren't panning out (as it should be). Freestyle Superstars is a good example of that. It was well-intentioned and I think it's a bit underrated as a feature, but it wasn't working out as well as anyone hoped so it was replaced. If those features that aren't working too well were left in, I don't think we could be too happy with that either so for EA to say "This isn't working" and removing/replacing features like FSS strikes me as the lesser of two evils. It's better in the long run if it means a new development that's better but in the short term it does often come off as regression or a lateral move.