2017 NBA Finals: Warriors vs. Cavs part 3

[Dee4Three]

Fun fact: out of the 7 games T-Mac guarded Dirk in the playoffs, Dirk only had one good game.

Super fun fact

Dirk averaged 33 PPG and over 15 RPG in a sweep of Kevin Garnett and the Timberwolves on over 50% from the field in 2001-2002

[Dee4Three]

All in all it's something that cannot be proven, but if you think these players would still be dominating then I ask myself how all the improvements of medical treatment/nutrition/sleeping/fitness have actually influenced the league? My point is still that the average ability of players has become better, making the top guys having to work even harder (especially with the disappearance of big immobile trees) and being athletically superior. It's a hypothesis that cannot be denied nor be proven.

But I see your point.

Has it though? Or are these greats from the past in phenomenal shape themselves, and could hold up perfectly fine in todays NBA?




















So let's put the skill level of these greats, who could hold their own physically and athletically in today's NBA, and see what they can do.

Charles Barkley was dominant on the boards and in the paint when the towers were lurking, Barkley would tear up the NBA now.

[NovU]

I will take Dirk over Bird. He is to this day underrated very much.

[Dee4Three]

I will take Dirk over Bird. He is to this day underrated very much.

I agree that Dirk is very underrated. People that call him a slow unathletic white guy has never watched him in his athletic prime.

[Dee4Three]

The fact that a comparison even came to light, at all, when I said compare Birds athleticism with Peja... I can't get it out of my head (no offense, Hova). This was the comment:

You combine Bird with Peja from that body standpoint ... well is Peja a "legend"? He was a pure shooter who actually profitted from being part of one of the best working teams that never won a championship.

Peja was a fantastic shooter, but Bird was a fantastic shooter, a MUCH better rebounder, a MUCH better passer, and a better defender, with his amazing basketball IQ and will to win. You said "Well is Peja a legend?" like if they have the same body/athletic ability, they are the same caliber of a player? C'mon now... you know better than that. And for you guys who go "oh, here we go with videos"... would you rather look at text or watch some basketball?

Saying Dirk would be Anthony Tolliver in the now NBA?.... I thought you were trolling. Not one coach EVER would use the 7 foot, mobile, multi talented Dirk like Anthony Tolliver. Christ, coaches posted up Oubre on Thomas, do you know how often they would go to Dirk? Dirk with his length, height, quick first step (in his prime), his fadeaway, etc. Tolliver is JUST a spot up shooter.

Have some of you guys lost your minds in here or what?

Here are 15+ minutes of Bird, just passes. he was a great passer, look at his passing here.

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Heres Larry Bird in the 1981 finals. Quick moves, fast up and down the floor. He could easily keep up in todays NBA, just like back at that time.

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Here is Bird in all his shot making glory, just an all-star now?

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He was called "fragile" above, fragile? He takes hits in this video that would have players now out for games, or lying on the floor in pain for awhile. C'mon.. you are better than that...

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Anthony Tolliver???? This performance could still happen NOW, as in... todays game. What in the world are you talking about?

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So I have to wonder if you guys are being serious. Do I need to do side by sides of other players from past to present to show how the athletes were still phenomenal back at that time? Do I need to explain how strength and athleticism aren't everything, that the players skillset matter? (Peja compared to Bird.... UGH). I admit when now players have a ton of skill and would be good in any decade. Even thin, Kevin Durant would because of his amazing skillset. Russell Westbrook, absolutely. You guys have to be kidding about a few of these statements.

Again, don't complain about the videos. If we are talking basketball, it is much better than looking at text/stats the whole time.

[Dee4Three]

I just cant let these comments go, here is another one from above.

But: physical specimen like we have them nowadays, with the long arms and the big strides

This is wrong on SO MANY LEVELS. Here is a height chart from the beginning of the NBA up until 2015. In 1980, the height is almost identical, in 1986 it was more! LENGTH. Big Strides? Have you ever heard of Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, Artis Gilmore, Rik Smits, Mark Eaton, Manute Bol, Geourghe Muresan, Shawn Bradley, Ervin Johnson, Ralph Sampson, Vlade Divac, Shaquille O'Neal, Brad Daugherty, Bill Cartwright, Darryl Dawkins, Alton Lister, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar etc,etc etc etc and a lot of these guys got up the floor FAST. PF wise, have you heard of Bob McAdoo, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Terry Cummings, Horace Grant, Charles Oakley, Chris Gatling, Tom Chambers, Larry Johnson, Kevin McHale, Chris Webber, Dennis Rodman, Toni Kukoc, John Hot Rod Williams, Charles Smith, Danny Manning, Antoine Carr, Jayson Williams, Laphonso Ellis, Antonio McDyess, Buck Williams, Dale Davis, Elden Campbell (Could be in C's as well), Kevin Willis, Shawn Kemp. For SF's Adrian Dantley, Kelly Tripucka, James Worthy, Anthony Mason, Julius Erving, George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, Larry Bird, Larry Nance, Cedric Ceballos, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Orlando Woolridge, Johnny Newman, Mark Aguirre, Reggie Lewis, Scottie Pippen, Lewis Lloyd, Chuck Person, Chris Mullin, and more! That's just off of the top of my head.





Most of those names I listed above were great at getting up and down the floor, and they were LONG, with LONG strides, do you know how strong these players were? Have you watched some of the guys in the NBA now? Have you looked at a player like Dennis Schroeder (STARTER) and Brandon Ingram? You think THOSE GUYS are in better shape than the past players.... because there must be advancement in medicine/etc? I have so many more names I could throw out there, but with those comments... and this is meant with no disrespect... I think you may not know a lot or most of the names, I feel like there is no way you could. And if you know the names, you have no idea how they look or how they play. I want you to look at NBA Rosters right now, and tell me that they are longer with bigger strides, or more skilled than the 80's and 90's... please.. go look. Do what I did, put pictures side by side of players then and now, watch videos, and tell me that if anything, athleticism is a wash, and the league was LONGER AND MORE ATHLETIC with the PF's and Centers. Do you think any centers in the NBA are even close to as fast down the floor, or more athletic, or a more physical specimen than David Robinson?



Are you insane?

You think ANY player in the NBA looks like David Robinson? And he was over 7 feet tall..advances in medicine etc, but they can't get anybody to look like David Robinson? Have you looked at Nate Thurmond and George McGinnis, have you looked at the small forward Eddie Johnson in the 90s? You say "must be" because time had gone by and there must have been advancements? You don't think old school workouts and conditioning can't produce the same or better results, have you gone back and looked at the picture again? I hope so.

You stated that players get into passing lanes more and block more shots. Do you have any clue what you are talking about? Olajuwon had 376 blocks in ONE SEASON, to go along with 213 steals... as a CENTER. David Robinson had 158 Steals and 320 Blocks... This season the LEAGUE LEADER in steals was 157 by John Wall, the LEADER in blocks was Rudy Gobert with 214. Look at David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwons blocks and steals for these seasons.

David Robinson first 7 seasons.



Hakeem's first 13 seasons




This isn't even covering Mark Eaton, Dikembe Mutombo, Patrick Ewing, etc. Do you have any idea what these guys would do now with length??? Do you know how many of the names I listed were GREAT at getting up and down the floor? Freaking Rudy Gobert is considered a top tier big man in todays NBA, and Porzingis, do you know what so many of the names above would do to Rudy Gobert and Porzingis? Weak/fragile? You think the now Rudy Gobert/Porzingis could handle some of these guys? Passing lanes? Players were in passing lanes all time!

Outside of stats, watch these guys on video (You can't possibly have already), watch them on youtube, watch full games. Watch the timing, the quickness, the endurance, the athleticism, the footwork.

If I sound like I am frustrated, I actually am. I've heard that Dirk in his prime would be like Anthony Tolliver now (I'm still shitting myself over that one), Larry Bird is fragile, players back in earlier decades were not as good athletes and would not be able to keep up in todays NBA, Ive heard that Magic Johnson is too slow for todays NBA (WHAT), that Bird has a skillset like Peja so he couldn't possibly be a legend in todays NBA (disregarding all of his other skills outside of shooting), the players now are longer with longer strides, etc. I think I am losing my mind.

You think Jae Crowder, Andre Roberson, Demarre Carroll, MKG, Marvin Williams, Anthony Tolliver (my head), Brandon Ingram, Luke Babbitt (STARTER!!), luc mbah a moute, Trevor Ariza, Dennis Schroeder, Joe Ingles (look at his body, and hes a damn starter), Kent Bazemore, Marcus Morris, Zaza Pachulia (chubby, slow, short strides, started for the championship Warriors... good one), Iman Shumpert (I cant believe you used him as a positive), etc etc etc etc are ANY BETTER than the role players from the 80's and 90's? Some of the names I mentioned are starters, some rail thin, some look out of shape. What in the world are you talking about!? Do you have any idea how good a guy like Terry Cummings was? Do you have any idea how much Terry Cummings would be talked about in his prime in the now NBA? Larry Nance would be talked about daily now, he was just another small forward that wasn't talked about much back than. Tom Chambers? do you know how amazing he would be in todays NBA?

Are you also completely forgetting about the fundamentals? Not only were the 80's and 90's filled with amazing, strong athletes, they were more fundamentally sound. You must think that athleticism and strength trumps that because of your Peja/Bird comparison. What?

Please, please do some research and watch these players play, and get back to me.

[NovU]

hova said: But physical specimen like we have them nowadays, with the long arms and the big strides
Sir. This does not necessarily mean the height. Have you not access to internet? "Wingspan" has become a new highly valued stats in recent era.



hova, and rest of you dimwits, go watch youtube highlights and see how athletically/skillfully superior past players are. Conditioning and talent level of today's players suck as technology has regressed so hova has a moot point. #hardwoodClassicStuff

[shadowgrin]

Magic was banging Laker Girls left and right yet he still was capable of dominating games then.
Prime Magic would still have the physical skills required in the NBA today.

Fun fact: out of the 7 games T-Mac guarded Dirk in the playoffs, Dirk only had one good game.

Super fun fact

Dirk averaged 33 PPG and over 15 RPG in a sweep of Kevin Garnett and the Timberwolves on over 50% from the field in 2001-2002

[ Image ]

Would have been really super if Garnett often stayed on Dirk (like T-Mac did) instead of staying near the post to guard the paint and letting another defender that's undersized to rotate on Dirk to guard him on the perimeter.

[hova-]

The problem is that I am talking about the average NBA players and did almost not drop any names aside of Bird, Jordan and Magic whilst you are talking about all the Hall of Fame Superstars.

Sure, Hakeem would still be a decent players as well as David Robinson. But then again there could be doubts if they were as dominant as back in the days since you have a lot of average players who seem to be more athletic than the average player back in the day.

You post pictures where you compare star players like Isaiah Thomas with Dennis Schroder and they look basically the same, the difference being that Schröder has frigging long arms.

Barkley next to Millsap and they look the same? That's what I am talking about. Barkley is a legend, Millsap will never be. Still they seem to have athletic similarities? You prove my point there.

Posting pictures of Pippen, Robinson, Malone makes no sense imho. These are not the players I am talking about. These were athletic specimen back in the days already. It's a problem that I want to make a point for the whole league and you always bring up legends and how good they were. My point is, they would have problems because the average play has risen.

Then you bring in fundamentals, something I did not even talk about in a negative way for the 80ies and 90ies.

I have a strong feeling that you are a nostalgic fan of the old school players and that is okay. But you cannot prove something that cannot be proven. No matter how many blocks Robinson or Olajuwon had (which rather makes a point for blocking having become more difficult since nobody is averaging a lot of blocks in recent days. A thesis could be that handchecking etc led to easier help D blocking or that today there are more floaters and more three point shots. Why should it mean that these players were extraordinary athletes???)

You bring up good points and I see on most of them where they are coming from. But you feel like you are dismantling me on a point where you cannot prove any arguments. Don't claim I have no idea of the the past of the NBA. Your points are just as much hypothetical as mine. You only try to back it up with "evidence" like Highlight vids (making players look good) and stats that have no significant relation to the claims I make (height when I talk about wingspan and players getting up and down the court like Giannis) - i.e. you use more time for your evidence and still persons here have doubts ....

Oh and about the Dirk argument (a discussion I am not even part of): I thought it was more a criticism of the coaching then of Dirk. Nowadays the stretch four is so much beloved that coaches really forget how good some players could be if they were not only stretching the floor. Basketball trends have a lot to do with how players can develop.

Dirk himself says that his best luck was, that his former Coach in Würzburg as well as Holger Geschwinder as his mentor always felt like Dirk should be playing on the wing, even small forward, whilst the commong recognition was that a player of his height should be banging his body down low in the paint as a center. If it was not for these coaches, Dirk would maybe have been forced to play a different style and never develop his talent and skill he already had (please don't try to find evidence against this claim. I read so many books about Dirk and have probably watched every interview he has given, so trust me on that one).

Cheers

[shadowgrin]

Also, Dirk didn't jump teams just to win a championship. 2nd best PF after Duncan.

[hova-]

Also, Dirk didn't jump teams just to win a championship. 2nd best PF after Duncan.

This is something that you cannot measure though. As much as I hate the decision as well as what Durant did, changing teams is legit and a matter of taste. Personally I love that Dirk stayed loyal and did it.

What you can compare are the teammates though and in this case I would give Durant the nod over LBJ, Dirk, Kobe whatever. He joined a team that already had great individual players and a was running well.

The Mavs of 2011 don't get enough credit though individually (which makes Dirk look even better actually). Tyson Chandler, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion weren't All-Stars at that time but in my opinion they were not because they a) got old (Kidd, Matrix) b) were not flashy (Terry) c) played defense (Chandler). I am pretty sure when you use advanced stats of back in the days you will find out that these four were better than some all-Stars in 2011.

Great team, great time.

[Dee4Three]

Hova, you are making no sense.

I showed Barkley next to Millsap to show that the players of the past could play just fine athletically today, to go along with the skill they already have. Just like the Peja thing, you are assuming Millsap and Barkley have the same skill level, you make no sense.

Hakeem Olajuwon decent now? He dismantled David Robinson and other great, longer, more atheltic centers than todays NBA, you think he would be locked up now? It would be absolute cake for him. You have never watched him play, clearly. Do you realize how bad this makes you lose credibility in this arguement?
Do you know how much this makes no sense?

The average players now are not "longer", the average players are not "better", I see a ton of below average players, one dimensional players.

The pictures side by side proved my point, players were in great shape and could hold up today.

When you said Magic is to slow for todays NBA, and Bird was fragile, and when you compared Bird to Peja, and called Hakeem average... you completely hurt any other positive points you could make. And, again... saying that Millsap and Barkley have the same body, so Barkley couldn't be a legend now, is disregarding the players abilities on the court, so you still can't digest the information and understand it.

The average players mostly suck now, did you watch the playoffs? Did you see how many average players and below were on the 16 best teams? You have absolutely no backing.

In regards to Dirk, I don't care how many books you have read. No coach, ever, would use a 7 footer with his mobility and skillset as a small forward on the wing, like a role player.

It not being nostalgic, it's seeing it and using logic. If Hakeem can manhandle David Robinson in a more physical game, with David Robinson being more atheltic and bigger than any big in the NBA today, and he can manhandle the other giants, you can't say he may be decent now, that defies logic, that has nothing to do with nostalgia.

You can't state that Magic would be too slow because there must be advancements in 30 years, when he clearly (even the 95-96 one) could keep up in todays NBA, you can see that even by the video I posted above, or ANY TIME you watch Magic. That's not nostalgia, that's what you see with your own two eyes, him flying up and down the court, sliding his feet fast, etc.

It's not nostalgia seeing that larry Bird has far more skill than Peja, with many different way to score and impact the game, it's easy to see that Barkley has far more skill and more ways to impact the game than Millsap, that is not nostalgia.

These are obvious things, you can't use the nostalgia argument, these are absolutely easy to see.

Do you realize how your statements make no sense? Can you see that it's not nostalgia with those claims about? That these things are EASY to see?

[shadowgrin]

imo the only big today that looks anywhere near the level of athleticism that David Robinson had is Anthony Davis.
Davis before he even started shooting threes was already dominant, I believe Robinson would still be great too if he were playing today.
Prime Robinson runs like a freaking guard on the break, even his biceps have their own biceps.

[Dee4Three]

The problem is that I am talking about the average NBA players and did almost not drop any names aside of Bird, Jordan and Magic whilst you are talking about all the Hall of Fame Superstars.

Which is why I mentioned a slew of other stars (not even all of them) at the 3, 4 and 5 positions. I didn't just mention hall of famers. However, if you want to go down that road, your argument in the first place was about condition/physical specimans etc. It wasn't even about skill, so with the proof that these hall of famers were more than equipped physically to handle the NBA today, just like they did back than, you make no point. Peja and Bird skill level? Barkley and Millsap skill level? You make no valid points at all.

Sure, Hakeem would still be a decent players as well as David Robinson. But then again there could be doubts if they were as dominant as back in the days since you have a lot of average players who seem to be more athletic than the average player back in the day.

This is wrong on every level. Hakeem dominated the most athletic bigs of all time, decent? Timofey Mozgov had 28 and 10 in the NBA finals, Nene had 28 and 10 in the playoffs this year. You think that Hakeem Olajuwon, who has an immense amount more skill, and is longer than both these guys, wouldn't completely obliterate the "Length" of the NBA today? You think Olajuwon would be bothered by lesser height at the PF and Center positions? Less skill? Olajuwon decent now? What?

You post pictures where you compare star players like Isaiah Thomas with Dennis Schroder and they look basically the same, the difference being that Schröder has frigging long arms.

You are cherry picking, big time... Thomas has more muscle, even If he didn't, he was a physical specimen who could EASILY hold up in todays NBA. The side by side pictures were to show that your argument of medicine/etc holds no ground. If players like Thomas, Malone, Drexler, Nique, etc can be in great physical shape, how can the other players not have access to the same workouts? How are players around them also not in good shape, athletic and strong? Right, because you are seeing only one side of the debate, you are not piecing that together. You think it was only the best players working out? Like all the other players were like "Man, fuck it... lets just let ourselves go, man... lets just be average athletically, fuck it man". You make no sense.

Barkley next to Millsap and they look the same? That's what I am talking about. Barkley is a legend, Millsap will never be. Still they seem to have athletic similarities? You prove my point there.

HOW IN THE WORLD did I prove your point? you proved MY point about how your argument is flawed. You said they couldn't keep up, I said they could. You mentioned that Bird and Magic couldn't keep up, hall of famers, legends. You did. You proved my point 100%, because while Barkley is showed with a similar body (proving he could keep up), he has an immense amount more basketball skill. You can't possibly come to that conclusion, if you don't understand what I said, please read it again.

Then you bring in fundamentals, something I did not even talk about in a negative way for the 80ies and 90ies.

That is part of the problem, you are talking about "This player couldn't keep up, so they would be decent" which is completely false (proven false), so while that is not true, you are not even talking about the fundamentals of basketball, the footwork, the repetoires of players, none of it. Like it doesn't matter? What?

I have a strong feeling that you are a nostalgic fan of the old school players and that is okay. But you cannot prove something that cannot be proven. No matter how many blocks Robinson or Olajuwon had (which rather makes a point for blocking having become more difficult since nobody is averaging a lot of blocks in recent days. A thesis could be that handchecking etc led to easier help D blocking or that today there are more floaters and more three point shots. Why should it mean that these players were extraordinary athletes???)

I can't measure? I am talking about obvious facts, like Olajuwon dominating much more physical big men, more physical players, with MORE length. That is a fact! Your statement of players being longer is somehow relevant (Even though it's not true), and can be measured, but my claim that Olajuwon dominated bigger, longer more talented centers somehow can't be measured? Do you see where your claims breakdown?

Nostalgia? Kevin Durant would be amazing in any decade, so would Westbrook, those are current players (and there are more) who would be great In any decade. Some other recents like Dirk, Garnett, Kobe, etc. I am seeing BOTH SIDES, but I am also seeing things for what they are with players from the past. Nostalgia is a term used when someone doesn't have a strong stance, or can't digest information. Just like "biased", a term thrown around when someone has a strong stance on something that disagrees with the accusers narrative. Do you see how that doesn't fit in here?

You bring up good points and I see on most of them where they are coming from. But you feel like you are dismantling me on a point where you cannot prove any arguments. Don't claim I have no idea of the the past of the NBA. Your points are just as much hypothetical as mine. You only try to back it up with "evidence" like Highlight vids (making players look good) and stats that have no significant relation to the claims I make (height when I talk about wingspan and players getting up and down the court like Giannis) - i.e. you use more time for your evidence and still persons here have doubts ....

I am not dismantling you, I am actually really concerned that you think you are making valid points. I showed videos to demonstrate the speed of the game, the athleticism of the game, I showed videos to show skillsets (Like Peja never being able to make half of those passes Bird could make). Videos show what a player can actually do!!!! Video evidence in any case is strong evidence. I will expand on this in a minute, again you are making no sense.

Postby NovU on Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:03 am

hova, and rest of you dimwits, go watch youtube highlights and see how athletically/skillfully superior past players are. Conditioning and talent level of today's players suck as technology has regressed so hova has a moot point. #hardwoodClassicStuff

Ahh yes, videos. Let me breakdown how videos are helpful.


A CRIME:

Detective: Sir, here are the witness statements, she saw the whole thing.
Prosecutor: Do you have the surveillance footage?
Detective: Yes, but no worries, you don't need that. It's all written down on this piece of paper.
Prosecutor: But it will streng---
Detective: Listen, it's all right here. Tell them what happened reading from this paper.


A MOVIE NIGHT:

Husband: Hi Honey, ready to go to the movies?
Wife: Nah, I decided we can get the same opinion on the movie by reading the script, it will be the same experience.
Husband: Babe, but what abou--
Wife: Listen, it's all right here, we can tell how well it was acted and everything!


BASKETBALL:

Scout: Hey Bob, I am going to go watch John Smith play to get a better idea of how he moves around on the court, his skillset, how he handles himself on the floor.
Manager: Don't worry about it, he has similar stats in college as Fucknut McGee, they also have a similar build, we will take him with the 5th pick.
Scout: Wait, I have some game film of him right here, want to watch that instead?
Manager: No need, John Smith has all the making of a star in this league, I mean... look at Fucknut McGees stats in the NBA so far? no brainer.


You guys are seriously going to refute video's of players displaying what they can do on the court. Do you realize how silly that is in a basketball discussion? Why do you think coaches have tryouts for players, or why combines exist, or why scouts go to games, or why coaches watch gametape with players after every game, so they can see the positives and negatives of the players/teams and what they can do!

You guys are knocking videos of the players playing basketball, in support of advanced stats? You guys are knocking the video argument, do you know how crazy that is in a basketball discussion?

Do you know how crazy It is to make claims like Peja and Bird have the same athleticism, so Bird wouldn't excel in the NBA, completely disregarding ALL THE OTHER skills Bird had (Shot making, rebounding, passing, IQ etc). Same with Barkley and Millsap... and you guys are getting on my case about sharing videos?????!!!

Are you guys insane? Basketball videos.. videos of players playing basketball... in a basketball forum? In a discussion? How dare I.

[Dee4Three]

imo the only big today that looks anywhere near the level of athleticism that David Robinson had is Anthony Davis.
Davis before he even started shooting threes was already dominant, I believe Robinson would still be great too if he were playing today.
Prime Robinson runs like a freaking guard on the break, even his biceps have their own biceps.

Beautiful, yes. Thank you.

BTW, I think Anthony Davis is fantastic, and that he would be good in any era of basketball.

[Dee4Three]

Magic was banging Laker Girls left and right yet he still was capable of dominating games then.
Prime Magic would still have the physical skills required in the NBA today.

Fun fact: out of the 7 games T-Mac guarded Dirk in the playoffs, Dirk only had one good game.

Super fun fact

Dirk averaged 33 PPG and over 15 RPG in a sweep of Kevin Garnett and the Timberwolves on over 50% from the field in 2001-2002

[ Image ]

Would have been really super if Garnett often stayed on Dirk (like T-Mac did) instead of staying near the post to guard the paint and letting another defender that's undersized to rotate on Dirk to guard him on the perimeter.

In regards to Magic, yes.. thank you. HIV and all, the dude could ball (even chubby in 95-96).

Btw, I agree with you about Dirk vs Garnett. I think they did that because at the time, Dirk had really quick feet on the perimiter, it was like guarding a 7 foot guard. I don't think Garnett could stay with him laterally.

However, I was not on the sidelines, so I don't know if that was true. I think at the time Dirk was more of a post player, Garnett would have been on him more.

Or maybe they wanted to keep Garnett fresh on the offensive end. Who knows.

[NovU]

I can post thousand of videos of LBJ's highlights, Wade highlights, to show you their ENORMOUS TALENT. What they can do on court is amazing. So what do they prove? You
idiot. It proves nothing. Every player in NBA has highlight vids with amazing plays. Stop this nonsense with youtube videos, they're fucking annoying. Nobody's watching em.

imo the only big today that looks anywhere near the level of athleticism that David Robinson had is Anthony Davis.
Davis before he even started shooting threes was already dominant, I believe Robinson would still be great too if he were playing today.
Prime Robinson runs like a freaking guard on the break, even his biceps have their own biceps.

Robinson would be a perfect physical specie man for today's league but he would have a smaller role than his era offensively because post up plays are ancient. He would fill in nicely as Hassan Whiteside does, especially with better shooting and awareness in existence of passing imho.

That said, Hakeem's stock would more than likely to take a bigger hit that David Robinson's if he played today because of bigger emphasis in his post up skillset. Back in the days, big men were allowed to get away with plays that today's big men can't(Perimeter defense was rougher). The notion big men are more valuable existed well into early modern era. Portland that drafted Bowie over Jordan repeated the same mistake and drafted Oden over Durant. Kinda explains why today's top picks involve more guards/wings than before.

The Mavs of 2011 don't get enough credit though individually (which makes Dirk look even better actually). Tyson Chandler, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion weren't All-Stars at that time but in my opinion they were not because they a) got old (Kidd, Matrix) b) were not flashy (Terry) c) played defense (Chandler). I am pretty sure when you use advanced stats of back in the days you will find out that these four were better than some all-Stars in 2011.

Indeed. Tyson Chandler was more than an allstar caliber. He was significant. However, he still did it with much less talent than other superstars with longevity. He won 50+ games for how many seasons, he made it deep in the playoffs for years, all with less capable support talent than other superteams.

I especially like the fact he elevated level of his game in the playoffs. Rarely superstars get better in the playoffs.

[shadowgrin]

I just looked at their roster for that season and KG was the only capable inside defender the Wolves had. No wonder he had to switch away from Dirk and guard the paint. Rasho Nesterovic was garbage.

[NovU]

the dude could ball (even chubby in 95-96).

Yeah, like behind the scene players were complaining and scared to play against him while media and league were profiting from awesome Magic's return. Ever wonder why he quickly disappeared after a great return.



I thought Jason Collins is a similar case, a player that doesn't belong getting an actual contract with NBA team and huge media coverage, then disappears quickly. Politics... sigh

[Dee4Three]

the dude could ball (even chubby in 95-96).

Yeah, like behind the scene players were complaining and scared to play against him while media and league were profiting from awesome Magic's return. Ever wonder why he quickly disappeared after a great return.



I thought Jason Collins is a similar case, a player that doesn't belong getting an actual contract with NBA team and huge media coverage, then disappears quickly. Politics... sigh

That has nothing at all to do with the claim that he couldn't keep up in todays NBA, which is what I am contesting. Which is what my video showed (That he could still keep up, even at that point), and anytime you watch Magic you can easily see that he could keep up.

Even if your point holds relevance, it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

[Dee4Three]

I want to give you guys a few examples of why this is so frustrating.

Accusation: Magic Johnson would not be able to keep up in today's NBA

Me: Show video of even a chubby Magic Johnson, in his first game back after a multi-year hiatus from basketball, getting up and down the floor just fine against a fast Warriors team. Video evidence that shows even an out of shape, chubby Magic, could keep up in a fast paced, physical environment.

Forum: Oh look, it's Dee using youtube videos again!!!

Also Forum: Now you are just talking about hall of famers (Not acknowledging the false claim made, or the video).

Accuser: That can't be measured.


Accusation: Bird is fragile, and could not keep up in todays NBA

Me: Bird absolutely could, look at him get up and down the floor in his athletic prime, look at him get up and down the floor in his last season with a bad back, look at the him in these actual videos of him doing these things.

Forum: OH LOOK, IM SMART, I AM DEE4THREE SHOWING YOUTUBE VIDEOS!

Also Forum: Now you are just talking about hall of famers (Not acknowledging the false claim made, or the videos)

Accuser: That can't be measured.

Accusation: So lets say Bird and Peja have the same athleticism, Peja was just a shooter who benefited from players getting him open

Me: That is completely false, look at Bird's skillset. He's a better rebounder, had more offensive moves, better passer, better defender, and he's certainly not fragile. Here are videos showing his elite passing, rebounding, shot making abilities, etc.

Forum: DEE4THREE with the videos again!!! Oh look, I'm Dee4three showing videos again......

Accuser: That can't me measured.


Accusation: Players were not as athletic and would have trouble keeping up

Me: Here are side by side pictures showing that they were in great shape and could keep up, and here's video of than and now pace, showing that the players were more than athletic enough to keep up.

Forum: Oh Dee4three and your silly videos, videos again, really?

Accuser: But Dennis Schroeder has longer arms than Thomas


Accusation: Hakeem would be decent in todays NBA, the length would bother him.

Me: Olajuwon dominated big men with much more length, and Olajuwon was great at getting up and down the floor.

Accuser: That can't be measured.


Accusation: Dirk would be like Anthony Tolliver in the now NBA.

Me: Not one coach would use him this way, ever. Because of him being 7 feet, mobile, quick (in his prime), the ability to step in and shoot shots on the move, the fact that he was a better rebounder and more athletic as well. Here is a video of him scoring almost 60, see all the things he can do that Tolliver cant? Porzingis you would say is better than Tolliver, and they let Porzingis take most any shot he wants. You don't think primed Dirk is better than Porzingis by far on every level?

Forum: OH LOOK, VIDEOS AGAINNNNNNNNN.



Are you guys serious in here?

[Dee4Three]

I just looked at their roster for that season and KG was the only capable inside defender the Wolves had. No wonder he had to switch away from Dirk and guard the paint. Rasho Nesterovic was garbage.

Yeah, Rasho wasn't exactly a gem. He did well for the Spurs though as a starter on the 04-05 championship team.

[NovU]

Which is what my video showed (That he could still keep up, even at that point), and anytime you watch Magic you can easily see that he could keep up.

No, your video didn't show Magic playing in the current NBA. People have to use their imagination how his game would translate into today's NBA just like Jordan's vids, Wilt's vids, etc etc. Everyone here watched their era or through various avail vids. That's established base. We don't need to be reminded neither watch vids again for 1000s of times. Cmon, kid.

[Dee4Three]

Which is what my video showed (That he could still keep up, even at that point), and anytime you watch Magic you can easily see that he could keep up.

No, your video didn't show Magic playing in the current NBA. People have to use their imagination how his game would translate into today's NBA just like Jordan's vids, Wilt's vids, etc etc. Everyone here watched their era or through various avail vids. That's established base. We don't need to be reminded neither watch vids again for 1000s of times. Cmon, kid.

No, you can clearly see the pace in that video keeps up with the pace of the current videos. That is absolutely a valid point, 100%. If claims are made they couldn't keep up, nothing is better than watching the player go up and down the floor in a fast paced environment to show he could. That is actually what's happening in those videos, in real life. It is more relevant than any words on this thread, NovU.

The physical shape of said players was contested, which is completely wrong. You can see that from the videos (who he is playing, the athletes around him, the pace of the game). That can all be seen on video, all of it. That is why teams watch gametape, that's why scouts watch players, that's why video and in person are number one to evaluate a player.

[NovU]

I am seriously suspecting if you are seriously a moron.

Even college players go up and down the floor at great pace. Highlights are just highlights. They are highlighted plays which selectively chooses visually pleasing plays. As many of those plays exists, there are more flawed and failed plays.

So you wanna draw an entire picture based on a few highlighted plays?


Never have I seen anyone using youtube vids as evidence at this massive scale, I am seriously in shock. May I ask you what your IQ score was? Answer it, this is important.